Jeff Levine on Confederate Emancipation

[johan_steele]

Levines book... haven't read it; nor likely to as I am bored to death w/ the fight over Black CS soldiers. The Lost Cause would have us believe there were thousands upon thousands; the reality is considerably less than that and I think anyone who has bothered to attempt real research on the subject knows that. (That means not taking documents out of context to inflate the position or concentrating on documents penned as the CS was crumbling around the ears of Davis.)

Numbers recruited in the last gasps of the CS? Minimal. Huge numbers enlisted in TN & LA early war? Moonshine as they were never mustered or armed and only LA can claim any real organization including Black men willing to fight for the CS... and the CS did not want them.

Black CS soldiers were VERY few & far between.

Why the continued attempt to paint the fiction of thousands upon thousands of black CS troops from the Lost Cause? Can it be a belief that rewrites of history will make it appear that the black population w/in the CS supported slavery? Or is it just more thinly veiled attempts to lessen the importance of the USCT?

Where did those hordes of black soldiers fight for the CS? What units did they fight w/? Where are they buried? Who did they surrender to and who paroled them? All questions that cannot be answered because the occurances were so rare as to be mostly fiction.

Yes there were black CS soldiers; IMO their total number was less than that of women who masqueraded as men to go off to war. Their direct contribution to the CS war effort on the sharp end? Minimal. THere support behind the lines was significant; but the majority of that suport was via slave labor... something the Lost Cause is loathe to admit. Those black men who fought for the CS deserve respect. My own research puts the number at around 1,300; Neil puts it at closer to 13,000 IIRC. While I think it is a number well on the high side it isn't an unreasonable number but in total number of troops fielded by the CS it is hardly significant.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

...and slim was never a marxist.

Neither was Marx...

[trice]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

Levines book... haven't read it; nor likely to as I am bored to death w/ the fight over Black CS soldiers. The Lost Cause would have us believe there were thousands upon thousands; the reality is considerably less than that and I think anyone who has bothered to attempt real research on the subject knows that. (That means not taking documents out of context to inflate the position or concentrating on documents penned as the CS was crumbling around the ears of Davis.)

Numbers recruited in the last gasps of the CS? Minimal. Huge numbers enlisted in TN & LA early war? Moonshine as they were never mustered or armed and only LA can claim any real organization including Black men willing to fight for the CS... and the CS did not want them.

Black CS soldiers were VERY few & far between.

Why the continued attempt to paint the fiction of thousands upon thousands of black CS troops from the Lost Cause? Can it be a belief that rewrites of history will make it appear that the black population w/in the CS supported slavery? Or is it just more thinly veiled attempts to lessen the importance of the USCT?

Where did those hordes of black soldiers fight for the CS? What units did they fight w/? Where are they buried? Who did they surrender to and who paroled them? All questions that cannot be answered because the occurances were so rare as to be mostly fiction.

Yes there were black CS soldiers; IMO their total number was less than that of women who masqueraded as men to go off to war. Their direct contribution to the CS war effort on the sharp end? Minimal. THere support behind the lines was significant; but the majority of that suport was via slave labor... something the Lost Cause is loathe to admit. Those black men who fought for the CS deserve respect. My own research puts the number at around 1,300; Neil puts it at closer to 13,000 IIRC. While I think it is a number well on the high side it isn't an unreasonable number but in total number of troops fielded by the CS it is hardly significant.

In reaction to the passing of the Confederate legislation in 1865, some recruiting officers were sent out. The only unit of black Confederates there is a record of as a result appears to be 2 understrength companies marching through Richmond in late March. They accompanied the retreat to Appomattox, acting as a wagon guard, appear to have formed up for a fight near Sailor's Creek, and dug some entrenchments near Farmville.

It so happens I am going on a tour of the retreat to Appomattox in March, and we are staying in a hotel in Farmville. The head of our group has asked the guide, Ed Bearss, if he could point out either one of those spots to us. I'll let you know what comes of it.

Regards,
Tim

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

Sorry, the neo-Glories neither get to define the issue...
...nor make the rules.

Neither should the Lost Cause. History, not fiction. I know it is a difficult concept for you to grasp but it is what those who actually study the period look to. Let us stick to actual history instead of Lost Cause fiction.

[unionblue]

Battalion,

In all of our debates over the issue of Black Confederate soldiers, I cannot recall your specific stance on the issue, at least, not very clearly.

May I ask you a few questions with the hope of getting some specific answers from you?

1. Why is it so important to you to establish that significant numbers of slaves and black freedmen served in the Confederate Army as soldiers? What benefit or purpose do you think this will provide to history, in particular, the history of the South during the Civil War?

2. What number of black slaves/freedmen to you believe served as soldiers in the Confederate Army?

3. Why, in your personal opinion, would large numbers of slaves/freedmen want to join the Confederate Army to defend the Confederacy?

4. Do you personally believe that a large majority of the people of the South supported the idea of making soldiers of slaves? If so, can you provide sources for such support?

5. neo-Glories? And this is to be understood as the opposite to neo-confederate?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by unionblue

Battalion,

In all of our debates over the issue of Black Confederate soldiers, I cannot recall your specific stance on the issue, at least, not very clearly.

May I ask you a few questions with the hope of getting some specific answers from you?

1. Why is it so important to you to establish that significant numbers of slaves and black freedmen served in the Confederate Army as soldiers? What benefit or purpose do you think this will provide to history, in particular, the history of the South during the Civil War?

I'm not sure if the numbers involved in combat would be significant...but the overall support (teamsters, servants, etc) certainly.

"Why is it so important to establish"

We need to know.

2. What number of black slaves/freedmen to you believe served as soldiers in the Confederate Army?

"Officially?"...or performing duties the equivalent of?

3. Why, in your personal opinion, would large numbers of slaves/freedmen want to join the Confederate Army to defend the Confederacy?

Personal loyalties.
Defending the homeland.

4. Do you personally believe that a large majority of the people of the South supported the idea of making soldiers of slaves? If so, can you provide sources for such support?

Large majority? No.

Best I can tell it was about half and half.

[unionblue]

Battalion,

Thank you for your reply above.

I am not sure the number involved in combat would be significant...but the overall support (teamsters, servants, etc) certainly.

Then you are saying that actual slaves and freedmen involved in combat would not be significant? Would you hazard a guess on what you feel the number of black slaves and freedmen actually were involved in combat as soldiers?

As in overall support of the Confederate army by slaves in such roles as teamsters, servants, etc., by the very use of the word 'support' does this not actually eliminate slaves in these positions from fighting roles in the Confederate military? And can we not assume these men were not in the majority 'volunteers' but merely in these roles because they were told to do so?

We need to know.

I agree with you, but we need to know in what context these men served with historical accuracy and fact. Again, as you seem to be the 'loyal opposition' in this debate, why is it so important to you to establish that black slaves/freedmen fought for the Confederacy?

Unionblue: 2. What number of black slaves/freedmen do you believe served as soldiers in the Confederate army?

Battalion: "Offically?"..or performing the duties equivalent of?

Both Offically and those performing the duties equivalent of. I would like to know what you think they were and if you can provide me a source(s) so that I may verify the numbers.

Personal loyalties.
Defending the homeland.

I might have a hard time with those two reasons in most cases.

First, while I agree some slaves remained loyal to their masters, from what I have gathered a majority of those slaves who remained with their masters might have done so because of continued slave patrols and enforcement of passes, etc. Another reason for staying put was the idea that slaves just had to wait, as the Union army would be along in time and set them free without the risk of trying to run off.

Second, your comment of defending the homeland reminded me of something I read on the subject a while back.

"They asked me if I would fight for my country," he remembered. "I said, 'I have no country.'" Then "they said I should fight for my freedom." To which the man had retorted that "to gain my freedom" on their terms "I must fight to keep my wife and children slaves."

And another item I read:

Strolling through Macon the previous month, southern editor J. Henly Smith came upon some white boys taunting "a negro man of stalwart frame who stood near them. One of the boys said to the negro, 'Uncle, why don't you go and fight?' "What I fight for?' asked the Ebon. 'For your country,' replied the boy. The negro man scowled and said instantly, 'I have no country to fight for.' (Taken from the Atlanta Southern Confederacy, Jan. 20, 1865.)

Unionblue: 4. Do you believe a that a large majority of the people of the South supported the idea of making soldiers out of slaves?...

Battalion: Large majority? No. Best I can tell it was about half and half.

Half and half? May I ask where you got this impression from?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[larry_cockerham]

Gentlemen, thank you for continuing this 'discussion'. Folks around here just honor and preserve the memory of those involved in the war, one at a time. (Except maybe for Willie Sherman, and even he has his followers.)

[unionblue]

Larry,

No problem. I just would like to have a conversation, without all the jabs and heat, and find out where Battalion is coming from. Too often we permit emotions to take over and do not exchange information. I'd like to avoid that and just have a talk, not a scoring match.

As for honoring the soldiers of that war, I have never had any problem with that, if that is what is being acomplished. Again, it is the context in which that honor is applied that concerns me. As long as we are honoring a brave man who fought in the war (white, black, free or slave, North or South) it matters not to me as long as we render honor to him and not use the occasion to advance a personal/political modern-day agenda.

I have been to Shiloh and seen the mass grave of Confederate dead. I have been to Johnston's Island on Lake Erie and seen those Southern graves of men so far from their homes. I have visited the Camp Chase cemetery in my home State of Ohio and so many other battlefields dotted with the graves of Confederate dead.

I have wondered how those men may have felt at the prospect at being lost to their families and having to remain so far from home and loved ones, never to return. How did their loss effect their families and how they must have wondered and mourned when they finally realized that their husbands, fathers, sons and brothers were never coming home.

I have stood at attention in honor guards in a Confederate uniform with my musket at 'present, arms,' trying to insure that we do not forget them, and to repay respects to the men who fought for what they believed, no matter if I in the present thought them wrong or right for doing so.

Their courage and devotion to a cause and a people they thought important enough to serve and die for is enough for me to honor them. They sleep in ground far from their homes and an eternity from all that they loved and held dear.

In no way would I deny them the honor they deserve.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[PINCKNEYUSMCRET]

Well said, UNIONBLUE, well said.