Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
"...Blair [Francis Preston Blair, Jr., Republican Congressman] foresaw the passage of the St. Louis police bill some time before it passed the house, and adopted measures to counteract its effect. He began re-organizing his Wide-awakes, nominally a political formation, into Home Guards, openly a military organization, and arming and equipping them for active service. In doing this he was plainly violating and defying the laws of the State. He was organizing a military force within the limits of the State, over which the State authorities had no control, and which was intended to be used to overthrow the government of the State and make war on its people. The State had not seceded, and there was no evidence it would secede. The evidence, in fact, was strongly the other way. Blair deliberately put himself in the position of a revolutionist. He was backed by a self-constituted committee of safety, of which Oliver D. Filley, mayor of the city, was chairman. The first Home Guard company organized was composed mostly of Germans, but had a few Americans in it. Blair never shrank from responsibility, and he became captain of the company. In a short time eleven companies, composed almost entirely of Germans, aggregating about 750 officers and men, were organized. This was before the inauguration of Lincoln, and they were armed in part by the governor of Illinois and equipped by private contributions...." http://www.civilwarhome.com/missouri3.htm
So you have a member of Congress, the Governor of Illinois, and other like-minded political operatives raising and arming a military force with the purpose of subverting the elected Government of the State of Missouri.
Actually, nothing you just posted has anything at all to do with treason.
However, Governor Jackson's actions in April and May of 1861 are textbook cases of treason against the US under the Constitution, for which he could have easily have been tried and convicted. His letter to Davis and Davis letter back to him would be definitive proof of it, along with the weapons seized at the Baton Rouge arsenal and shipped to Camp Jackson -- where Lyon captured them in May.
Blair's action might have been illegal under state law, but nothing you presented would show us that it was. You haven't shown even that he was trying to subvert the government of Missouri. If it was illegal, it would be no different than the organization of armed secessionist "Minute Men" in Missouri at the same time -- or the shipment of arms to the South throughout 1860 from other states, and the organization of so many Militia companies in Southern states that year in preparation for war, it would seem. All would be illegal, and if you really want to paint Blair with that brush, you will also be saying the secessionists were guilty. Is that what you want to do?
Also, you are quoting here from Confederate Military History, and I doubt we can consider that an impartial source on the acts of Unionists. I note that reading your reference it seems Blair was doing this in March; your source also mentions that Governor Jackson had:
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In the arsenal, as has been stated, there were 60,000 stand of good arms, with an abundance of the munitions of war. The Minute Men would have seized it or died in the attempt if they had not been restrained by their commanding officer. His policy was delay. He and those in authority at Jefferson City were waiting for the legislature to act and the people to rise en masse, when they proposed to demand the surrender of the arsenal, and, if the demand were not complied with, to take it by force. But the governor, busy trying to control the legislature, some time before had turned the matter over to General Frost, and authorized him to take it whenever in his judgment it was expedient to do so. Frost accepted the trust and had an interview with Maj. Wm. H. Bell, the commandant of the arsenal, and on the 24th of January reported the result to the governor.
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So it seems your source is saying Governor Jackson was plotting to seize the arsenal in January. The "Minute Men" had also organized in January. This is two months before Blair started organizing the Home Guard if I read your source correctly (admittedly, it isn't clear on this and might be earlier). Looks like he had darn good reason with such a traitor in the Governor's office, doesn't it?
The state took over control of the St. Louis Police force, appointing 4 commissioners: 3 Sourtherners by birth and the 4th a Northerner who opposed the use of force against seceding states. State senate passed it March 4; lower house on March 23.
The state took over control of the St. Louis Police force, appointing 4 commissioners: 3 Sourtherners by birth and the 4th a Northerner who opposed the use of force against seceding states. State senate passed it March 4; lower house on March 23.
Thanks, Tim. Sounds like Blair read the governor's intentions clearly. Head 'em off at the pass, Frank.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Thanks, Tim. Sounds like Blair read the governor's intentions clearly. Head 'em off at the pass, Frank.
Ole
The Mayor of St. Louis was Republican at the time; the police force largely composed of German immigrants. Governor Jackson had been asking for permission to use the Militia against the opposition since he was inaugurated in January and the legislature had refused.
There was a state convention meeting in St. Louis when the legislature passed the Police Bill. On March 4 (same day the upper house passed it), the "Minute Men" in St. Louis nearly started a disastrous riot by flying a secession banner over their HQ:
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An event which happened on the day that Lincoln was inaugurated, and on which the State Convention began its sessions at St. Louis (March 4th), came very near precipitating the conflict in Missouri, and gave Blair and Lyon good cause to press their demands upon the Government.
During the preceding night some of the Minute Men (Duke, Green, Quinlan, Champion, and McCoy) raised the flag of Missouri over the dome of the Courthouse, and hoisted above their own headquarters a nondescript banner, which was intended to represent the flag of the Confederate States. The custodian of the Courthouse removed the state flag from that building early in the morning; but the secession flag still floated audaciously and defiantly above the Minute Men’s headquarters, in the very face of the Submissionists’ Convention, of the Republican Mayor, and his German police, of the department commander, and of Lyon and his Home Guards; and under its folds there was gathered as daring a set of young fellows as ever did a bold, or a reckless deed. They were about a score at first, but when an excited crowd began to threaten their quarters, and the rumor to fly that the Home Guards were coming to tear down their flag, the number of its defenders grew to about one hundred. They all had muskets of the latest and very best pattern. On the floors of the upper rooms were heaps of hand grenades. In the wide hall was a swivel, double-shotted, and so planted as to rake the main entrance if any one should be brave enough to try to force it. At every window there were determined men, with loaded muskets, and fixed bayonets; behind them were others, ready to take the place of any that might fall; and in all the building there was not a man who was not ready to fight to the death, rather than submit to the rule of Abraham Lincoln; nor one who would have quailed in the presence of a thousand foes, nor one of them that survives today, who would not fight just as willingly and just as bravely for the flag of the Union. Outside, too, throughout the ever-growing crowd, other Minute Men were stationed, to act as the emergency might require.
Before the hour of noon had come all the streets in the vicinity were thronged with excited men, some drawn thither by mere curiosity and by that strange magnetism which mobs always exert; some to take part with the Minute Men, if "the Dutch" should attack them; some to tear down "the rebel flag," and to hang "the traitors," who had dared to raise it on the day of Lincoln’s inauguration.
Everything betokened a terrible riot and a bloody fight. The civil authorities were powerless. It was to no purpose that they implored the crowd to disperse; in vain that they begged the Minute Men to haul down their flag. The police could do nothing. The Home Guards did not dare to attack, for their leaders knew that the first shot that was fired would bring Frost’s Brigade, which was largely composed of Minute Men, to the aid of their friends, and that they would also be reinforced by the Irish, between whom and the German Home Guards there was the antipathy of both race and religion. Only once did any one venture to approach the well-guarded portals of the stronghold. The rash fools that did it were hurled back into the street, amid the jeers and laughter of the crowd. Blair and the Republican leaders, unwilling to provoke a conflict, kept their followers quiet, and finally towards midnight the crowd dispersed. The next day’s sun shone upon the rebel flag still flying above the roof of the Minute Men’s quarters. But Duke and Greene were unhappy, for they had hoped to bring on a fight, in which they would have been reinforced by Frost’s Brigade, and the Irish and many Americans, and in the confusion to seize the arsenal, and hold it till the Secessionists of the State could come to their aid. They were, nevertheless, greatly elated because the people believed more than ever that there were thousands of Minute Men, instead of hundreds.
From "The Fight For Missouri", Thomas L. Snead, 1886. Snead was a Confederate during the war who managed to be declared biased by both sides when he wrote his book in the 1880s.
Maj. Thomas L. Snead, senior assistant adjutant general of my command, to whom I have been often indebted for vigorous support in hours of perilous trial (apart from the intelligent and faithful performance of the responsible and onerous duties of his office), surpassed himself this day in the intrepid manner with which he bore himself throughout the conflict, rallying the troops again and again, and urging them forward to the scene of action. In this work, under the hottest fire of the enemy, and until we had swept their intrenchments and carried the hill, he was faithfully, fearlessly, and gallantly assisted by Maj. L. A. Maclean, assistant adjutant-general." Sterling Price, July 4, 1863
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Regards,
Tim
Actually, nothing you just posted has anything at all to do with treason.
They are guilty of at least conspiracy to commit treason.
Like it or not, Claiborne F. Jackson was the duly elected Governor of the State of Missouri. The conspirators- Blair, Governor of Illinois, and others -had no authority whatever.
Not only that, Captain Lyon, an officer in the United States Army, was actively assisting in drilling (in secret) the "Wide-Awake" military companies as early as February 1861.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
However, Governor Jackson's actions in April and May of 1861 are textbook cases of treason against the US under the Constitution, for which he could have easily have been tried and convicted. His letter to Davis and Davis letter back to him would be definitive proof of it, along with the weapons seized at the Baton Rouge arsenal and shipped to Camp Jackson -- where Lyon captured them in May.
The item I posted is not about Governor Jackson...but the illegal actions of a Congressman (not yet in office), the Governor of Illinois, and others of the same political stripe (Lincoln maybe? Hmmm...).
The time period involved is January-March 1861...April and May haven't happened yet.
You are a big stickler to slamming the South for supposed illegal acts...but jump through hoops to explain away actions by pro-Northern factions that have no official sanction from anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Blair's action might have been illegal under state law
Might have been?
Their purpose, by force of arms, was to oppose the Governor of Missouri. Pray tell us how this is "legal?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
If it was illegal, it would be no different than the organization of armed secessionist "Minute Men" in Missouri...and the organization of so many Militia companies in Southern states
Organizing a military-styled company was not against the law.
Organizing one for the purpose of opposing the elected government of a state was.
Quote:
-- or the shipment of arms to the South throughout 1860 from other states
I fail to see anything illegal about state governments receiving shipments of arms.
The item I posted is not about Governor Jackson...but the illegal actions of a Congressman (not yet in office), the Governor of Illinois, and others of the same political stripe (Lincoln maybe? Hmmm...)
....
Their purpose, by force of arms, was to oppose the Governor of Missouri.
....
Organizing a military-styled company was not against the law.
Organizing one for the purpose of opposing the elected government of a state was.
Wow...what did I hit on here-
Lincoln And Political Cronies Involved In Conspiracy Against Governor Of Missouri?
........................Follow The Money
Some major contributors to the St. Louis “Wide-Awakes”-
Isaac Sherman, N.Y……$13,020...(today's equivalent- over $250,000) “In political life, MR. SHERMAN was originally a Democrat. He became very prominent in the ‘Barn-burner’ movement. He subsequently left that organization and took a prominent part in the founding of the Republican party. He was one of the chief supporters of Fremont in his canvass in his candidacy for the Presidency, and from that time had much influence in the party. During Abraham Lincoln's Administration, he was one of the President's confidential advisers. It is said that no one in the country stood closer to Mr. Lincoln or was more relied upon for advice. It is generally understood by Mr. Sherman's friends that he declined the position of Secretary of the Treasury, which was offered to him by Mr. lincoln.” http://www.newspaperabstracts.com/print.php?id=23338
J. W. Forney, Pa........$100...(today's equivalent- about $2,000)
"John W. Forney (1817-1881)
Editor of Philadelphia Press (started in 1857) and Washington Chronicle (started in 1861). Originally a War Democrat, Forney was appointed as Secretary of the Senate in 1861 with the support of President Lincoln...." http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/...46&subjectID=2
They are guilty of at least conspiracy to commit treason.
Treason is a crime defined in the US Constitution. Nothing you have posted shows any evidence of such a crime for these people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Like it or not, Claiborne F. Jackson was the duly elected Governor of the State of Missouri. The conspirators- Blair, Governor of Illinois, and others -had no authority whatever.
What "conspirators"? We have proof positive that C. F. Jackson was engaged in treason (his orders to Frost, his letter to Davis, his plans to seize the arsenal, the "secret" shipment of stolen weapons from Jefferson Davis, etc.) All you have produced is a claim that these people were going to overthrow the state government -- in a source that is obviously tilted toward secessionists and biased against Unionists -- with no support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Not only that, Captain Lyon, an officer in the United States Army, was actively assisting in drilling (in secret) the "Wide-Awake" military companies as early as February 1861.
So? That is still the month after the secessionist "Minute Men" had organized in St. Louis, the legislature refused to allow the Governor to call out the Militia, and the Governor had authorized General Frost to seize the St. Louis Arsenal at the first opportune moment. Frost had approached the Major commanding the Arsenal, who had agreed to hand them over when Missouri seceded.
In all of that, the only act that might be considered illegal would be the action of the Major , who was in clear violation of his duty and exceeding his authority. It was not against state law to have private clubs and organizations with arms and training in January, February, or March of 1861 in Missouri. Other than Jackson's own actions, which would end in treason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice However, Governor Jackson's actions in April and May of 1861 are textbook cases of treason against the US under the Constitution, for which he could have easily have been tried and convicted. His letter to Davis and Davis letter back to him would be definitive proof of it, along with the weapons seized at the Baton Rouge arsenal and shipped to Camp Jackson -- where Lyon captured them in May.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The item I posted is not about Governor Jackson...but the illegal actions of a Congressman (not yet in office), the Governor of Illinois, and others of the same political stripe (Lincoln maybe? Hmmm...).
Battalion, you were replying to a passage about the clear evidence was engaged in treason. You know this, and can refresh your memory simply by scrolling back through the messages in this thread.
These actions were not illegal in Missouri in early 1861. If they were, the Governor and his associates would have been guilty of the same, since both sides were doing the same things. If they were, Governor Jackson would not have been trying to get the military bill passed in February and March to make them illegal, now would he?
Of course, Jackson's idea was that he'd accept his "Minute Man" supporters into the State Militia and not the Home Guard, then get a law passed to disarm/disband any armed group not in the State Militia. Pretty neat trick. Probably explains why the state legislature didn't pass his law for him, which is why these actions were all perfectly legal at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The time period involved is January-March 1861...April and May haven't happened yet.
The Governor was engaging in this activity in January as well, ordering Milita General Frost to seize the Arsenal at the first opportunity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
You are a big stickler to slamming the South for supposed illegal acts...but jump through hoops to explain away actions by pro-Northern factions that have no official sanction from anyone.
?? I slam people who act illegally for acting illegally. You are accusing people of breaking laws that didn't exist.
I have no idea what you think you have hit on and it sure looks like propaganda always looks from what you posted. As I and many others have pointed out, you would save yourself a lot of aggravation by simply saying what *YOU* mean when you make these posts.
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