Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
"The 6th Massachusetts was a Volunteer organization (just like the 8800 raised in South Carolina)...not a regular militia unit (conscripts)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by joha
Conscripts? Please read what Conscript means; Mass had no Conscripts in 1861, nor did any CS state
Every State was required to have a militia...and it wasn't voluntary-
Militia Act of 1792
"That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia..."
...- in effect conscripts
The militia described above and volunteer militia are not the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joha
4 ships of the US Navy, 18 guns... only two legit warships and 200 replacement for the Fort... sorry; but that is not a serious threat to 3700 armed men in the city.
Heavy Guns:
47 Confederate against a potential 64 Federal
Confederate batteries..............47
Four Federal warships..............16
(Infantry is not much use against a ship with eight 9-inch guns)
Fort Sumter...........................48 (only 21 used)
One transport with 200 re-enforcements for Fort Sumter.
~
...but you are partially correct-
Whether the mission to relieve Sumter was a success or not...the primary objective was -as indicated by Lincoln's own words- to provoke a war.
Every State was required to have a militia...and it wasn't voluntary-
Militia Act of 1792
"That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia..."
...- in effect conscripts
The militia described above and volunteer militia are not the same.
Technically, until I was 45, I was considered militia as "militia" is still essentially what that act stated. In the event that whatever state I was living in at the time had been invaded, I'd be called-up (conscripted) to dig and wait for an invasion. This is the extent of it.
The militia described above and volunteer militia are not the same. And that's exactly what is in play. The 6th Massachusetts was not militia called up. It was volunteers. There seems to be a difficulty in differentiating between "militia" who likely didn't know they were militia, and people who volunteered to go where their state government sent them.
We're playing fast and loose with the word "militia." SC had militia as well, but they weren't counted among the volunteer groups -- also called state militia -- who filled the 8,835. A group of soldiers from any given area is called militia into accepted and received (have I used that before) into service of a larger body.
Quote:
I haven't posted any "account"...only stated that 250 civilians were killed and wounded...which is correct.
Nor have you come anywhere near close to showing the killing a wounding of 250 civilians.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Technically, until I was 45, I was considered militia as "militia" is still essentially what that act stated. In the event that whatever state I was living in at the time had been invaded, I'd be called-up (conscripted) to dig and wait for an invasion. This is the extent of it.
The militia described above and volunteer militia are not the same. And that's exactly what is in play. The 6th Massachusetts was not militia called up. It was volunteers. There seems to be a difficulty in differentiating between "militia" who likely didn't know they were militia, and people who volunteered to go where their state government sent them.
We're playing fast and loose with the word "militia." SC had militia as well, but they weren't counted among the volunteer groups -- also called state militia -- who filled the 8,835. A group of soldiers from any given area is called militia into accepted and received (have I used that before) into service of a larger body.
The 8835 in South Carolina had volunteered on the same (or similar) basis as the 6th Mass.
Quote:
Nor have you come anywhere near close to showing the killing a wounding of 250 civilians.
Ole
............................................Killed ......Wounded
Pratt St., Baltimore, Md................12...........?.....(estimated as high as 100 k.& w.)
Camp Jackson, St. Louis, Mo..........28.........100
Olive Street(?)......"........"..............?.......... .?
Walnut Street......."........"............10............?
Total.........................................50+. ......100+
Killed & Wounded:
100 + 128 + (10+) = 238+
Satisfied?
Based on the number killed (50) there could be easily 200 wounded.
The 8835 in South Carolina had volunteered on the same (or similar) basis as the 6th Mass.
No, they had not volunteered on that basis.
The 6th Mass was organized as part of the Massachusetts Militia in January of 1861. They were called out as Militia by the governor of the state on April 15 in response to President Lincoln's call for 75000 Militia for ninety days on that date. They served the required ninety days, and were relieved from duty (July 29, 1861) and mustered out of service (August 2, 1861).
The 10 regiments of the South Carolina Volunteers were not part of the South Carolina Militia. They were part of the South Carolina Army, authorized by the South Carolina legislature on December 17, 1860. This was an entirely new and separate organization. The men in it enlisted for a 12-month term of service These two SC organizations -- the Militia and the Army -- existed side-by-side.
In addition, the South Carolina legislature created 2 units of Regulars (1 artillery, 1 infantry) on January 28, 1861. These were also part of the Army -- not the Militia -- and are not included in the Volunteer command of General Bonham. These were also long-term enlistments.
Most or all of these SC units were later transferred to the Provisional Army of the Confederacy (I think all, but have not checked). They were still serving there in 1862 when the Confederate government passed the conscription law, retroactively extending their term of service indefinitely. As far as I know, the surviving units served until the end of the war in 1865, when the SC Army and the Confederate Army dissolved/surrendered.
Since they were never part of the South Carolina Militia, how do you defend your position?
Technically, until I was 45, I was considered militia as "militia" is still essentially what that act stated. In the event that whatever state I was living in at the time had been invaded, I'd be called-up (conscripted) to dig and wait for an invasion. This is the extent of it.
Technically, what we have today is not governed by the 1792 and subsequent Militia Acts. That all changed after the Spanish-American War when Congress passed the Dick Act. It was modified in the 1950s for the Cold War and in the 1970s for the All-Volunteer Army.
The main reason for the Dick Act was that the Spanish-American War had uncovered a lot of problems, and the Federals wanted them fixed. The states balked at the cost. The Dick Act started a series of deals over the next century where the Federal government paid for most of the bill, but got greater control and authority over the state forces in return.
Essentially, the various state National Guard and other forces are now the "organized militia". The rest of the masses of age 18-45 citizens are now the "unorganized militia". I believe the various state guard units such as the "Massachusetts Volunteer Militia" that changed its name to the "Massachusetts State Guard" this year are included in the "organized militia" along with the National Guard. In Massachusetts, the two organizations are HQ'd in the same building.
The militia described above and volunteer militia are not the same.
You think so? Then please post some source detailing what the term "Massachusetts Volunteer Militia", in use since at least 1805, actually means. Also, since the South Carolina Volunteers were part of the South Carolina Army and not the South Carolina Militia, why are you calling them Militia?
Confederate batteries..............47
Four Federal warships..............16
(Infantry is not much use against a ship with eight 9-inch guns)
Fort Sumter...........................48 (only 21 used)
One transport with 200 re-enforcements for Fort Sumter.
Your numbers don't seem to bear out at all.
Colonel Ripley, SC Army, commanding on one side of Ft. Sumter, says in his report that he had 46 guns and 4 mortars, set up in various places. There are 30 guns in Fort Moultrie alone. That total is more than the 47 you are saying the Confederates had. It does not seem to include those emplaced on Morris Island or anywhere else. Would you please give us some detail on how you came to this "47 Confederate against a potential 64 Federal" figure? It appears to be woefully inadequate to me.
BTW, why do you say the several thousand Confederate infantry are of no use, while you magnify importance of the 200 reinforcements aboard the transport?
Also BTW, why make a big deal about the number of guns that were never used at Ft. Sumter? The essential issues that prevented them from being used were 1) the shortage of men in Anderson's command so that the guns could not be manned and 2) the ammo problem (not enough prepared shot-bags, and not enough cloth to make more (The troops were sewing shot bags out of shirts, but obviously they would not get many that way).
Tim
P.S., the troops commanded by Ripley are the men of the 1st SC Artillery, part of the Regulars established by the SC legislature on January 28, 1861. That would mean several hundred men to man 50 heavy guns and mortars. They are not included in the 10 infantry regiments/8835 men of the Volunteers described in Gist's report to Bonham in early March. The guns on Morris Island were under a different commander and the men manning them came from the 4th Brigade of Militia, a force also not included in the Volunteers.
Originally Posted by Battalion
Baltimore, Md., and several incidents in St. Louis, Mo.
I haven't posted any "account"...only stated that 250 civilians were killed and wounded...which is correct.
Come now, Battalion. You presented that as something outrageous, as if it were an deliberate massacre. The truth is that civilians were assaulting troops moving through their city, and that Confederate sympathizers were trying to incite Missouri and Maryland into revolt at the time, including the supplying of arms to both. That the bloodshed in the riots is regrettable is certainly true. It is also true that *you* should acknowledge the nefarious manipulations of the Confederate and Virginia governments that played a large part in making this happen.
The 6th Mass was organized as part of the Massachusetts Militia [Volunteer Militia] in January of 1861. They were called out as Militia by the governor of the state on April 15 in response to President Lincoln's call for 75000 Militia for ninety days on that date. They served the required ninety days, and were relieved from duty (July 29, 1861) and mustered out of service (August 2, 1861).
The 10 regiments of the South Carolina Volunteers were not part of the South Carolina Militia. They were part of the South Carolina Army, authorized by the South Carolina legislature on December 17, 1860. This was an entirely new and separate organization. The men in it enlisted for a 12-month term of service These two SC organizations -- the Militia and the Army -- existed side-by-side.
Perhaps I should re-word:..."both were in the military service of their state on the basis of volunteers"...
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