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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #11  
Old 10-14-2006, 07:27 AM
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Wild_Rose,

What Dickens believed and what really was, in my own opinion, are two completely different things.

Enough evidence has been provided on this thread that Dickens was more than biased against Americans, all Americans, which in my own belief , lowers his value as an accurate reporter on the American Civil War. He may have said the war was about money simply because Americans refused to give him what he considered his just dues, thus forever coloring his views of money-grubbing Americans.

Just because he espouse's this view and it seems to support one theory of the war, again, it boils down to what you have stated, it was his own personal belief, and not much more.

If we are to debate belief, we might as well debate thin air. I like the fact that the majority of posters here tend to support their own views with historical documents and evidence (yourself included).

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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  #12  
Old 10-14-2006, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Wild_Rose,

Just because he espouse's this view and it seems to support one theory of the war, again, it boils down to what you have stated, it was his own personal belief, and not much more.

Unionblue
I agree with that, but then, theories of the war are nothing but our collective, personal opinions based on what ever evidence that we find. I also realize Dickens may have been extremely biased against the United States, but detesting slavery as he did, doesn't it make sense that he would have sided with the North if he was going to take sides at all? That indicates to me that he formed his opinion on something other than hating Americans.

Regards,
Rose
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  #13  
Old 10-14-2006, 10:53 AM
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Dickens spoke of slavery not so much as a sectional evil but as evidence that all America was brutal, greedy and uncivilized. In assigning a cause to the war, slavery would be an indictment of one side only. He used economics as a basis to indict the whole.

His animosity for all things American, particularly capitalism, color his opinions to the degree that they can be accepted only as expressions of distaste, not as those of a dispassionate, analytical observer.

Ole
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Last edited by ole; 10-14-2006 at 10:59 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-14-2006, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild_Rose
Dickens probably did believe the war was about money. The fact that he detested slavery doesn't mean he had to believe the war was over slavery, particularly in view of the fact that Lincoln insisted that it wasn't.
People "believe" all sorts of things, for many reasons. I am fairly certain Dickens believed what he was saying; I am also fairly certain he was wrong in his belief that the war was about money.

Dickens believed that Americans were what might be described as uncouth, prone to violence, and not to be trusted. He said so often throughout the 1840s and 1850s. There was a substantially heated debate about it through the years: you'll notice that he himself refers to it in the introductions to various editions of American Notes.

In addition, Mr. Dickens was a strong supporter of International Copyrights, a major literary/business issue of the day. US publishers were opposed to it. Essentially, this meant they wanted to publish his work without paying for it, and he darned well wanted to be paid for his work. This isn't surprising, because he was the biggest selling author in the world, and so losing the most money to these pirated editions.

Among other things, we should suspect that this colored Mr. Dickens' impressions of Americans: he had dealings them about money, and he felt they were ripping him off. In particular, he would have felt this way about Northerners, because the publishing industry was essentially a Northern one, probably New York-Philadelphia-Boston at a guess. For his feelings about slaveholders, I refer you to the chapter in his work I provided the URL for earlier.

I've never seen the entire text of the anonymous December 1861 article that everyone attributes to Dickens. I would guess it either was him, or a view he endorsed, since he edited the magazine and it is similar to a private letter he did write. All I ever see is the sentence or two out of it everyone attributes to Dickens. Knowing the above about Dickens and seeing the quote, my reaction would be: "Here is a man who has angry financial dealings with Americans, and he attributes money-grubbing to everything they do as a result."

I say that because I can see no support for what he says. I know far more about the war than he did in a documentary sense -- no praise for me, we just live in a world where the information is easily available, and he didn't. If there is support in the article for what he says, I'd be interested in seeing it because I'd like to see the entire argument, and because I would like to know if he was accurate in his conclusion.

BTW, I don't think, nor have I ever said, that the North went to war over slavery. Only a few extremists -- and I do mean very, very few -- in the Northern states would have done that in 1861. The North went to war because the secessionists of the South determined to dissolve the Union and assault the United States.

I do think the South did go to war over slavery -- or rather, that they seceded over slavery, and then went to war over secession. There is no other issue that rises to the level of justifying secession -- or, when you examine it, you will notice that slavery is at the bottom of the divide on an issue people claim is something else.

My own belief is that if the South had acted as responsible citizens, using the legislative and legal options easily available to them, there would have been no war in 1861, and that quite possibly (30-50%) they would have been allowed to leave peacefully after negotiating terms.

Regards,
Tim
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  #15  
Old 10-14-2006, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild_Rose
I agree with that, but then, theories of the war are nothing but our collective, personal opinions based on what ever evidence that we find. I also realize Dickens may have been extremely biased against the United States, but detesting slavery as he did, doesn't it make sense that he would have sided with the North if he was going to take sides at all? That indicates to me that he formed his opinion on something other than hating Americans.
As noted elsewhere, Dickens was a major proponent of International Copyrights, and US publishers were opposed. This meant that he wanted to be paid for what he wrote, and they wanted to publish his work without paying him.

In the nature of things, the North dominated the American publishing industry the way the Deep South dominated the growing of cotton. These arguments Dickens would have had with publishers would have been overwhelmingly with Northerners -- primarily in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. If he was bitterly upset with them over it, he would be bitterly upset with Northerners.

His experience with that would be much more intense, and much more personal, than his memories of the brief time he was in contact with slaveholders in 1842, or perhaps rare contact with them in England over the next two decades.

Regards,
Tim
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