Lee's decision

matthew mckeon · #1 09-19-2006, 10:09 PM

One of the great dramas of the war(or prewar) is Lee's decision that he had a higher loyalty to Virginia. Skepical about secession, full of misgivings about slavery, none the less, Lee renounced the army and nation he had served for decades, and cast his lot with the Confederacy.

What's interesting to consider is that about a third of Southern West Point grads and military officers from seceded states decided to continue to support(and fight for)_the Union.

I'd be interested to see how many of these officers and WP grads were from the border states, as opposed to the deep South.

JerseyBart · #2 09-20-2006, 12:16 AM

Very interesting. I guess if I had the choice between fighting for the Union or for my state (north or south, today or years ago) I would have a difficult decision on my hands. Not to make this a political discussion, but I would find it hard time for NJ Democrats and just as hard a time fighting for National Republicans. I don't trust any of them with my life, livelyhood and/or well-being.

But then again, my loyalties would be to my family and if a whole mess of troops came trapsing across my front yard, I'd wind up wanting to go after them in the worst way. I guess what I'm saying is, "I dunno." Just like every Civil War discussion, it leads to great debate. Good stuff Matt.

Bart

ole · #3 09-20-2006, 01:13 AM

Bart.

As usual, an oblique approach to spot on.
Ole

matthew mckeon · #4 09-20-2006, 01:22 PM

I've lived in several places in my life, so I can't say I have any real loyalty(as opposed to affection) for any one state.

However, plenty of Confederates didn't live their whole lilfe in one state either. While Lee identified with Virginia, many others moved several times, or immigrated from other countries. So if they weren't loyal to a state, what were they loyal to?

Bart,
Your comment made me think about occupations and the resentment they engender. Has anyone lived in an occupied country?

JerseyBart · #5 09-20-2006, 07:49 PM

Ole,

I do tend to do that, don't I. I just wouldn't want anyone I didn't know camping in my backyard, setting up shop in my house, eating my food and swimming in my pool. lol

Bart

JerseyBart · #6 09-20-2006, 07:51 PM

Matt,

Is still living with my parents at 28 considered an occupied country? I think it is, but I'm trying to get out. Close too.

Bart

MobileBoy · #7 09-22-2006, 12:30 AM

Matthew,
Do you have the exact numbers of Southern West Point Grads who fought for the Union? Also what was the percentage of West Point grads who fought for the Union were from the eleven states who actually offically joined the Confederacy ? I wonder because I read a book once talking about all the Southerners who fought against the Confederacy. After reading the book I discovered 80 percen( I think that's correct) of those soldiers came from Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and West Virginia. In other words very few Union soldiers came from the territory that actually made up the Confederate States of America. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks a liberal definition of Southern can be misleading. I guess Southern to me means Confederate where as the states I mentioned above are more correctly described as border states in my opinion. I know about Winfield Scott and George Thomas (I think he never got the credit he deserved ) but that's about it.

JohnTaylor · #8 09-22-2006, 08:08 AM

Lee's decision is frequently cast in terms of protection of home (which Lee did mention). But there is another aspect that is frequently not spoken of, and that is the nature of the limits on Federal power. Once President Lincoln had issued his proclamation calling for 75,000 troops, and Virginia had seceded, and Lee had had his interview with Blair, he knew what was coming, an invasion of the states, and ultimately, the overthrow of elected state governments, and he could not in good conscience take part in that effort. Lee did not feel that the current situation warranted secession, but a Federal invasion of the states was constitutional either.

As Lee said later in a letter to Mr. Chauncey Bure, January 5, 1866:
“All the South has ever desired was that the Union as established by our forefathers should be preserved; and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth.” Personal Reminiscences of General Robert E. Lee, edited by J. William Jones, page 189.

Lee, in a letter to George W. Jones on March 22, 1869, wrote: “I was not in favor of secession, and was opposed to war; in fact, that I was for the constitution and the union established by our forefathers; and, as far as I know, it is that for which the south has all of long contended.” Reminiscences, page to 253.

The interesting question is how Confederate Generals from northern states, like Bushrod Johnson and John Pemberton, and Union Generals from southern states, like George Thomas and John Gibbon, came to the conclusions they did.

whitworth · #9 09-22-2006, 09:23 AM

It's difficult to get a fix on R. E. Lee and his attitude towards the consequences of secession.
He certainly was of the higher class. And West Point graduates were by their education of a higher class.

Lee as a soldier certainly spent more time away from Virginia than in the state during his U.S. service. One might think he might have lost some of his provin******m towards Virginia. But states were more important to many people of the time.
His great uncle had introduced the 10th amendment, which retained some importance to the states, even though the acceptance of the U.S. Constitution, meant the states had ceded their detached sovereignty.

As soldier Lee did not seem to grasp what the cost would be to Virginia. It was too close to the U.S. Capital. His wife's estate inheritance at Arlington was just across the river from Washington, D.C. The U.S. had the powerful navy. Did he think Arlington really safe. His wife remained there for quite a period.
I doubt Lee ever grasped the ability of the U.S. to expand its military logistics system. Lee spent an entire U.S. Army career involved with supply shortages. Perhaps he thought it militarily impossible to subdue such a large area as the Confederate States.
A lot of Confederate officers, graduates of West Point, thought that too.

What a great mistake of thinking that the U.S. could not sustain a long war, and eventually enter ever Confederate state with its armies.

Before the war commenced, Lee actually thought that Virginia could defend the western part of the state. Secession would cost Virginia over a third of its state. Much of that was lost early in the war. Ten days after the state referendum to secede, Federal forces were driving Confederate and Virginia forces out of Philippi, Virginia, a good distance from the Ohio River. Even Robert E. Lee could not save that part of Virginia. General Lee never seemed to see it coming. He expected loyalty from all citizens of Virginia. He was sadly mistaken.

matthew mckeon · #10 09-22-2006, 09:39 AM

Dear Mobile Boy,
I don't have the specific state numbers, but I think you're on to something about a "liberal" definition of the CSA; including the border states.

Dear JT,
Two points:
1) Was there a Southern nationalism, beyond a state loyalty? I think so, states like Alabama and Mississippi were very similar socially and politically prewar. Eastern and Western southern states were linked by family on top of everything else. This is not counting the shared experience of the war.

2) Lee's comments you quote, on the Southern cause, came after the war was over--his thinking in 1860 was less ideological(in my opinion). I don't know very much about guys like Pemberton, Gibbon. I know that Thomas faced a lot of family disapproval for his choice. I would be very interested in looking into that.

Mosby(in his postwar memoirs) claimed his choice was unthinking, and in talking to Grant(decades after the war) asked him if he would have fought for the CSA if he had been born where Mosby had been. Grant smiled and said "probably."