Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Just to take a look at this small part of the discussion:
13.7% of the approximate 186,000 British Army strength figure in 1868 would be 25,482 whippings.
The US Census for 1860, the last showing figures for slaves, lists 3,950,546. Using your 1% figure, you would arrive at a figure of 39,505 whippings.
I have no idea whether or not this 1% figure is too high, too low, or just right. Did I miss a source for this somewhere earlier, or would you be able to supply one?
Regards,
Tim
Time on the Cross cites 0.7%% chance per annum of being whipped, but is not from 1865, but 1850.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
One thing that strikes me is that those who say slavery was not that bad or that the bible somehow supports slavery... are the last to volunteer for involuntary servitude.
Will if you could enter in involuntary servitude by voluntary action, we would have to rename it. But how about NE slaves entering into life time contracts when made free by those states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John teele
As a note those who call soldiers slaves or their equivelant... I do not suggest such an opinion be expressed inside the local Legion, VFW post or Active Duty Military. Everyone is entitiled to their opinion; but do not be suprised if their is a negative reaction to such a thought. I have no doubt an individual calling a 20 year veteran of the Redcoats a slave would find his health in peril.
Im ex mil with 21 years service, and i also know what the USA called the Hessians brought over to fight them btw, i also know the wage slave thrown at Northerners by Southerners pre war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steele
I see no positive for slavery; none. Slavery was a moral wrong from the time of the Bill of Rights & Declaration of Independence... I hate hypocricy and slavery was a distinct hypocricy.
Really, you should go to a class on the subject, no slavery no cheap textiles for the world, the top 20 US richest men were all southerners, 3 lived in Natchez and all were involved in slavery, because it wa sthe most lucrative, profitable enterprize in the continent.
Odd how morality changes with a positive law, like the DOI, personally i belive my moral values dont change due to circamstances.
Only a certain kind of person applies hypocracy to a group, rather than to an idividual, after all when the Northern States freed their slaves, they made sure they sold of the profitable ones first, as the age groups on Northern states clearly show to be the case, but would not call them all hypocrites.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
You've posted laws regulating treatment of slaves. Have you any citations of instances in which such laws were actually enforced?
Yes, have you ever read the freem mand commision report to Congress on slavery, refugess, use of negros as labour, soldiers, effect on society etc?, it details cases of ill treatment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole
Biblical references. The Old Testament has reference to their treatment and acquisition. The New refers not to slaves specifically but to treatment of your fellow man. By your rejection of the Christ's admonitions, I can only conclude that a) you don't accept the New Testament or b) that you don't consider the slave a fellow man.
logic is not your thing.
I dont reject the parrable, i do reject your intpretation of it, as does the online source i provided make clear, all it alludes to is to treatment of fellow men, which is not a reference to stopping slavery, or saying it is imoral.
Old testament is full of slavery refernces, and none are on the side of the Abolitionist that i know or can find.
Slaves as fellow men was indedd the prevaling concept of southern jusiprudence, the Southern courts made you a citizen of the state you were emancipated in, Northern courts did not and required you to leave the State on manumision more often than not.
All men are not equal, the more free the society, the more free you are to show how unequal you are, bigger house, newer car, better job, better lawyer when you fall foul of the law and they never have been nor never will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
We have a number or correspondents on this board who defend slavery not as a moral positive, but because it was, at the time, not generally considered a moral negative. This is a valid position and defensible. None of them, at least not that I can recall, now defend the peculiar institution as other than an aberration of the past. I am puzzled by your learned defense of the institution with references to biblical, ancient, and alien military practices -- none of which apply to the historical, American reliance on involuntary servitude.
Ole.
You inherited slavery from the Uk, Spain, France, ive quoted from your Sc and USSC cases on it, i can do more, i can give you Jefferson NWT and Congrees views on what to do about the problem, i can give you Souther J
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
This is a marvelous discussion. I marvel at the lengths to which the debaters go to research and defend their positions. None has been a slave, I presume.
Im ex mil with 21 years service, and i also know what the USA called the Hessians brought over to fight them btw, i also know the wage slave thrown at Northerners by Southerners pre war. Bastards & Mercenaries to name just two of the more polite. That said, you were a veteran of 21 years (I'm assuming US)... were you a slave? Were you paid? Did your CO have the right to bed your wife, nullify your marriage, sell or bed your children? I rather doubt it. It's a rather harsh difference don't you think? As to the biblical refernces to slavery... the ten commandments, look to them and you will see at least two commandments that are broken by the very practice of slavery.
Really, you should go to a class on the subject, no slavery no cheap textiles for the world, the top 20 US richest men were all southerners, 3 lived in Natchez and all were involved in slavery, because it wa sthe most lucrative, profitable enterprize in the continent. I was referring to the inherrent hypocricy between the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and slavery.
Only a certain kind of person applies hypocracy to a group, rather than to an idividual, after all when the Northern States freed their slaves, they made sure they sold of the profitable ones first, as the age groups on Northern states clearly show to be the case, but would not call them all hypocrites.Am I such a "certain kind of person"... don't know. Was such an act by NE slaveowners hypocritical? Absolutely. I refer to slave owners spouting a demand for freedom as hypocritical to the extreme. And I will call any man or woman who supports or defends slavery hypocritical so long as they are unwilling to deliver their children and loved ones into the gentle institution of antebellum slavery.
Had I lived in the 1860's I have little doubt that I would have opposed slavery; would I have been an Abolisionist? I don't know. I do see no plus to slavery, economic plusses? certainly there is nothing quite like free labor and profitting upon the back of other men is as old as slavery and yes slavery exists today in other parts of the world it does not exist in the US in anything but a highly illegal form. Are convicts slaves? Tommy boasted that to the four winds... my reply... they receive 3 hots, a cot, a roof overhead and no neck stretching rope.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
"Remember those in bonds as bound with them." St. Paul.
"Break every yoke, and let the oppressed go free." Isaiah.
"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant who has escaped from his master unto thee; he shall dwell with thee; even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best; thou shalt not oppress him." Deut. xxiii. 15, 16.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
"Remember those in bonds as bound with them." St. Paul.
"Break every yoke, and let the oppressed go free." Isaiah.
"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant who has escaped from his master unto thee; he shall dwell with thee; even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best; thou shalt not oppress him." Deut. xxiii. 15, 16.
I'm impressed! Thanks for the input, Neil.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
This is a marvelous discussion. I marvel at the lengths to which the debaters go to research and defend their positions. None has been a slave, I presume.
Remarkable.
Depends on your definition of "slave".
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Well, there was that part about Moses. Guess you missed it.
No not really, having already posted that God gave to Mosses the laws of slavery directly from God to man. Man or rather Mosses then quoted those laws to Pharoah and petioned for freedom, under the laws of manumision given by God, since it was lawfull for them to ask, and they fullfilled Gods strictures for aplication for freedom, God would Punish the Egyptians if they went against Gods laws of emancipation, the Israiltes had fullfilled the terms of slavery under which they had often laboured, before for instance**
Did you miss the part where Mosses kills an overseer and is cursed by God? and had to flee the country?.
**
Gen. 3:15-30 says in BC1347, a tribe, Moabites, defeated and enslaved the Israelites for 18 years. YHVH allowed this because the Israelites had disobeyed him,The Isralites disobeyed YHVH and He "handed them over" to the Moabites for 18 years. When they repented, He delivered them by elohim (Judge) Ehud
Judg. 6 & 7 says in BC1227, a tribe, Midianites, attacked and for 7 years oppressed the wicked Israelites, The Israelites disobeyed YHVH and He "handed them over" to the Midianites for 7 years. When they repented, He delivered them by Elohim
Judg. 11:1-4 says in BC1124, a tribe, Ammonites, defeated then oppressed the wicked Israelites for 18 years, The Israelites disobeyed YHVH and He "handed them over" to the Ammonites for 18 years. When they repented, He delivered them by Jephtah
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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