Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
The very idea that a modern employee of say Tyco or Wal Mart in any way has a life similar to a slave is comical... no it is farce and it cheapens what slaves suffered. It is tantamount to saying slavery wasn't that bad, in fact it is saying slavery was a great career.
Read the slave narratives as a start; then go to SC and start picking cotton, start at dawn and finish at sundown w/ a bit of food brough to you about midday and some water a couple of times throughout the day. Then forget about any kind of payment for your labor... get back to your shack to find your wife and children sold by your benevolant master as he needs a bit of capital. Oh by the way, you are denied the right to read or even to learn to read and you have to ask permission to marry. Do you recall King Edward's rules about marriage in Scotland? Same applied in the South... if you are up for such a life for your wife & daughters... Again I doubt it.
Shane,
BTW, one of the reasons there were people in the South who wanted to re-open the Atlantic Slave Trade (such as the leading Fire-Eater Rhett of Charleston, SC) was that there were counties in the South where the death rate for slaves was higher than the birth rate. The rice plantaions in SC and LA seem to have been particularly prone to this. As a result, they had a constant need for new purchases, and supply was tight.
Yet another negative for the potential "slave career".
BTW, one of the reasons there were people in the South who wanted to re-open the Atlantic Slave Trade (such as the leading Fire-Eater Rhett of Charleston, SC) was that there were counties in the South where the death rate for slaves was higher than the birth rate. The rice plantaions in SC and LA seem to have been particularly prone to this. As a result, they had a constant need for new purchases, and supply was tight.
Yet another negative for the potential "slave career".
Regards,
Tim
Er your just plain wrong, VA and Maryland exported all the slaves thats SC required, and your wrong that Rhett argued on those grounds you list for the reson why the slave trade should be reopened.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
John, i fear your talking past me rather than replying to anything i post, so im calling it a day with you, because you dont know what im saying, and you certainly dont know what your saying.
[A]ll able-bodied male negroes between the ages of eighteen and fifty within the military lines of the Department of the South who are not, on the day of the date of this order, regularly and permanently employed in the quartermaster and commissary departments, or as the private servants of officers, within the allowance made by the Army Regulations, are hereby drafted into the military service of the United States, to serve as non-commissioned officers and soldiers in the various regiments and brigades now organized, and in process of being organized, by Brig. Gen. Rufus Saxton, specially authorized to raise such troops by orders of the War Department.(5)
After this order had failed to produce the desired results, the following amended order was issued:
In view of the necessities of the military service, the want of recruits to complete the unfilled regiments in this department, the great numbers of unemployed colored men and deserters hiding about to avoid labor or service, and in consideration of the large bounties now paid to volunteers by the Government, General Orders, No. 17, dated headquarters Department of the South, Hilton Head, S.C., March 6, 1863, is hereby amended to read as follows:
All able-bodied colored men between the ages of eighteen and fifty, within the military lines of the Department of the South, who have had an opportunity to enlist voluntarily and refused to do so, shall be drafted into the military service of the United States....
The owners or superintendents of plantations, and all other persons throughout the department not in the military service, are hereby authorized and required to arrest and deliver to the local provost-marshal of the nearest military post all deserters in their employ or loitering about their plantations, and if it be necessary for a guard to make the arrest, it shall be the duty of such person or persons knowing of the whereabouts of any deserter, or person by common reports called a deserter, to report the fact to the nearest military commander, and also to render him all assistance in his power to cause the arrest. Any person found guilty of violating this section shall be severely punished.
5. General Orders No. 17, 6 March 1863; ibid., Volume XIV, page 1020.
6. General Orders No. 119, 16 August 1864; ibid., Series III, Volume IV, page 621.
General Rufus A. Saxton, "Men have been seized and forced to enlist who had large families of young children dependent upon them for support and fine crops of cotton and corn nearly ready for harvest, without an opportunity of making provision for the one or securing the other." On at least one occasion, "three boys, one only fourteen years of age, were seized in a field where they were at work and sent to a regiment serving in a distant part of the department without the knowledge of their parents...."(11)
10. Innis N. Palmer to R.S. Davis, 1 September 1864; ibid., page 654.
11. Rufus A. Saxton to Edwin M. Stanton, 30 December 1864, ibid., Series III, Volume IV, page 1028.
In his address to the Confederate Congress of 7 December 1863, Jefferson Davis stated:
Nor as less unrelenting warfare been waged by these pretended friends of human rights and liberties against the unfortunate negroes. Wherever the enemy have been able to gain access they have forced into the ranks of their army every able-bodied man that they could seize, and have either left the aged, the women, and the children to perish by starvation, or have gathered them into camps where they have been wasted by a frightful mortality. Without clothing or shelter, often without food, incapable without supervision of taking the most ordinary precautions against disease, these helpless dependents, accustomed to have their wants supplied by the foresight of their masters, are being rapidly exterminated wherever brought in contact with the invaders. By the Northern man, on whose deep-rooted prejudices no kindly restraining influence is exercised, they are treated with aversion and neglect. There is little hazard in predicting that in all localities where the enemy have gained a temporary foothold the negroes, who under our care increased six-fold in number since their importation into the colonies by Great Britain, will have been reduced by mortality during the war to no more than one-half their previous number.
Information on this subject is derived not only from our own observation and from the reports of the negroes who succeed in escaping from the enemy, but full confirmation is afforded by statements published in the Northern journals by humane persons engaged in making appeals to the charitable for aid in preventing the ravages of disease, exposure, and starvation among the negro women and children who are crowded into encampments.(17)
17. Jefferson Davis, address to the Confederate States Congress, 7 December 1863; Official Records: Armies, Series IV, Volume II, Part I, page 1047.
Slave Narratives, includes the 1930s study of all surviving negros, one of the questions asked was where you happier as a slave than today a free man. 70% of all surviving negros answered that they were happier as slaves than today as free.
Time on the Cross, which you cite utterly refutes your last rambellings about slave breeding, break up of familys through sale etc. Dont cite works that dont support your argument, as it tends to give the impresion your have not read them and think an appeal to authority is all you need.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Slave Narratives, includes the 1930s study of all surviving negros, one of the questions asked was where you happier as a slave than today a free man. 70% of all surviving negros answered that they were happier as slaves than today as free. Have you ever read them in their entirerty? The impression I came away within no way gives me the impression slavery was all that great... Just as a simple note; 1930's... mmm great depression? Also white people asking; not black... Of coarse there would be 70% or so saying: Yeah... I was happier as a slave, isn't that what you want to hear? It's also remarkable to me that you conveniently forget the horrible account of watching a man burned alive as punishment or of a mother never seeing her cildren again.
Time on the Cross, which you cite utterly refutes your last rambellings about slave breeding, break up of familys through sale etc. Dont cite works that dont support your argument, as it tends to give the impresion your have not read them and think an appeal to authority is all you need. Excuse me? I have not cited from Time on the Cross except to say it is among one of many titles that have shaped my opinion that your premise that slavery was lovely is ignorant.
I assure you I have read them; I typically only list books that I own; though I have often also mentioned books from the library that I frequently reference.
Davis as a source for... never mind. The very idea that EVERY black man serving as a conscript is a load of crock and a shallow attempt to cheapen their service and I believe you know it.
Of coarse some of the books I listed do not portray slavery as the brutal practice I see it as. Simply because I list a book as a worthy look does not mean I 100% agree w/ it either. Point out a single book that I listed that concludes slavery as the equal to your 21 year military career.
As you have called it a day, have a nice one. Continue to defend slavery; it's your right to do so. I really do hope it garners you no friends here. You implied those who disagreed w/ you ignorant in an earlier post... well I disagree w/ your premise and see only an individual who makes the increadible and unbelievable claim that he would be happy to be a slave. If that makes me ignorant... so be it.
I spent four years in SC; became friends w/ and later married the descendent of a slave whose grandmother still recalls her mother's & grandparent's memories of slavery; I have spoken with and LISTENED to the stories of some who grew up in the shadow of slavery. The stories disgusted me and frankly did not hearten my views of the human being;I recall asking my wfe once if I was being made a fool of by one old woman exaggerating and laughing at my interest. Her reply? "No, you listen and don't judge." Did I hear stories of a load of crap? I doubt it. The most memorable being shown a place where slaves fled to escape... a snake infested swamp. I also have a small sandy field forever burned into my mind... there is a mass grave there were a noble slaveowner murdered his slaves to keep them from freedom.
Much as walking into a Legion or VFW post and shouting to the four winds that a soldier is/was merely a slave would be the height of crass stupidity; walking into any one of the "bottoms" of a town in SC and shouting to the four winds that the people there were better off as slaves... about as intelligent as walking into an IRA bar and singing God Save the Queen.
I wish you luck in your attempts to further defend the institution of slavery; forgive me though if I don't wish you success.
Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.
As it is I bid you a good day.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Er your just plain wrong, VA and Maryland exported all the slaves thats SC required, and your wrong that Rhett argued on those grounds you list for the reson why the slave trade should be reopened.
No, Hanny, I am correct. The supply of slaves for sale was inadequate (in the opinion of men like Rhett, Yancy, Pollard, etc.) and the demand was growing. This resulted in constant price increases, a fact well-known and often documented -- and also a major complaint of slaveholders in the Deep South, as you will see mentioned in various threads on this board. Rhett of Charleston and Pollard of Richmond discussed this is a series of letters in 1858-59.
The slave population of Maryland was in decline and had been in decline (as a percentage of population) in every single census the US took after 1790. They would not be supplying slaves in large numbers to the South in the future, or for very long: Year .... Slaves .... Total Population .... Percentage ---------------------------------------------- 1790.... 103,036 .... 319,728 .... 32.2% 1800.... 105,635 .... 341,543 .... 30.9% 1810.... 111,502 .... 380,546 .... 29.3% 1820.... 107,398 .... 407,350 .... 26.4% 1830.... 102,994 .... 447,040 .... 23.0% 1840.... 89,737 .... 470,019 .... 19.1% 1850.... 90,368 .... 583,034 .... 15.5% 1860.... 87,189 .... 687,049 .... 12.7%
The high death rate of slaves on plantations near the swamps was one factor in increasing the demand for new slaves. The expansion to meet the demand for cotton was another. VA and MD were generally against re-opening the slave trade in the 1840s/1850s because they were making a big profit selling slaves to SC-GA-AL-MS-LA-TX-AR where the demand was high, and they had a virtual monopoly on excess supply to sell. SC-GA-AL-MS-LA-TX-AR had quite a few people who wanted to re-open the slave trade to increase the supply and bring prices down.
The Fire Eaters saw a danger in this politically as well. One of the things Rhett and Pollard are discussing is the need to increase the supply to create more slaveholders by bringing prices down. Otherwise, they felt, a class divide might arise betwen rich and poor whites, similar to the situation they saw in the North, that they thought might tend to bring an end to slavery.
Have you ever read them in their entirerty? The impression I came away within no way gives me the impression slavery was all that great... Just as a simple note; 1930's... mmm great depression? Also white people asking; not black... Of coarse there would be 70% or so saying: Yeah... I was happier as a slave, isn't that what you want to hear? It's also remarkable to me that you conveniently forget the horrible account of watching a man burned alive as punishment or of a mother never seeing her cildren again.
.
In passing, my father graduated from high school in New York City in 1933, age almost 16 (having been pushed up a couple of grades along the way). FDR had just been inaugurated, and the country was in a turmoil. Unemployment in NYC was running at something like 40%. One year later, my Dad was the only member of his high school class who had found a regular paying job -- but then, since both his parents were dead by 1929 and his youngest brother was 11 at the time, he had a lot of incentive to find work.
The Great Depression was pretty bad, and it would not be surprising to find that the memories of former slaves would see some happy moments looking back 70 years or so. I've read a few of those accounts collected in the 1930s, and there are enough horror stories to chill me to the bone in them as well.
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You can find bible quotes that both support slavery and don't support it. You have to take each and every quote and study the context in which it is spoken. I don't think we are able to ever come to an agreement on how the Bible "really" intends us to regard slavery. Each and every individual must come to their own conclusion.
Regarding the letter to the Baptist church, I'm very skeptical that Burns actually wrote it. It sounds like a rather passionate Abolitionist wrote what he expected Burns to feel. I don't think that discounts the content of the letter, but do think it would have been more effective if it had been signed on behalf of Burns rather than as Burns, himself.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Among the community of antislavery people, not all were opposed on a biblical basis. Some were; some were inclined more to feeling a bit guilty about that "all men are created equal" statement. Some were concerned with the effects slavery had on southern society, culture and industry. Some where opposed for many other reasons.
The slaveowners themselves did not always cite biblical justifaction. A great many recognized the institution as a drag on progress, but could see no way to escape from under the imperatives that had developed over the past 50 years.
As Rose eloquently stated, interpretations of biblical support and censure, are largely the result of how you feel about it before you start seeking biblical censure or approval; hence, not really biblical in origin -- it's morality originates in the individual and the times in which it is considered.
We largely feel differently about the institution today because we've had 150 years more years of cultural development than they had.
Ole
Slavery's morality
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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