Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
SamGrant; I understand where Jkeith is coming from here. While I have seen this quote quite thouroghly debunked JKeith hasn't. If you could provide a link or even cut and paste the reply to your email query that would, I think, go a long way in substantiating the quote.
In my own experiance in CW discusssions I have seen many invented quotes & have even unknowingly passed some on as legit.
All of us have heard the argumen that: It can't be proven therefore it didn't happen w/ the riposte of It can't be proven that it didn't happen therefore it did... I believe that is the point that was being aimed at (hope I'm not assuming here).
For what it's worth I was going to ask for a link as well so we could have it in concrete that it's a known false quote.
OK, for you I will do this (tho i think itis silly beyond belief).
I cannot provide a link as my correspondence with mister Simon is private and not on some board. Also I do not want to impare my relationship with Mr. Simon by any means. If one want's to contact him, one can find his address via the ULysses S. Grant Association web page (I think, otherwise figure it out by yourself, tho I don't think he would be happy to be deluged by a bunch of folks asking the same qustion.) I try to restrict my correspondence to significant issues, and was mighty hesitant to waste his time on this isssue.
Here is the email, (I have deleted my personal info, as I get enough junk mail/spam):
(name deleted),
The statement attributed to Grant has floated about on the internet for years, repeated often enough that some have thought it authentic. It is not.
As for our site, The university made a change requiring the word "twister" instead of www. Normally those using the old form are redirected, but this is not invariable. This annoys me, but the site is apparently always accessible through google when all else fails. Thanks for pointing this out.
John Y. Simon Ulysses S. Grant Association Morris Library Southern Illinois University Carbondale, IL 62901 (618) 453-2773 (office) (618) 453-6119 (fax)
From: (my Email adress deleted) Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:58 PM To: John Y. Simon Subject: Grant, slavery
Mr. Simon,
A contoversey has erupted on my CW discussion board, and i was wondering if you could help me out.
It is suggested that Grant either said or wrote something to the effect of:
"if I ever was led to believe that the War was about slavery, I would be obliged to turn in my sword to my superiors"
ole - I probably would too. In fact I will from here on out pending any further development. But, I also recognize that unless this gentleman is aware of everything Grant ever said, he cannot be certain of what Grant didn't say. And therefore it is just his opinion (that Grant did not say the sword thing) that'll I'll be going with. - Joe
Mr. Keith, it's equally difficult to prove he did say it as it is that he didn't. If he did, it was in a politically motivated context. If he did not .... ok. In either case, as you mentioned, it doesn't really matter. My only dog in this fight is in eliminating a story that should be eliminated as a matter of further discussion. If true, fine. If not, let's just put it where it belongs ... in the trash to never again be brought up as a fact.
There's a whole bunch of that sort of thing out there. Curiously, more of them seem to emanate from the southern side. But, north or south in birth, there's no place for BS in my study. Just the facts.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Mr. Keith, it's equally difficult to prove he did say it as it is that he didn't. If he did, it was in a politically motivated context. If he did not .... ok. In either case, as you mentioned, it doesn't really matter. My only dog in this fight is in eliminating a story that should be eliminated as a matter of further discussion. If true, fine. If not, let's just put it where it belongs ... in the trash to never again be brought up as a fact.
There's a whole bunch of that sort of thing out there. Curiously, more of them seem to emanate from the southern side. But, north or south in birth, there's no place for BS in my study. Just the facts.
Ole
I can't say, for a fact, if it's true or not that Grant spoke those words, but it would be in keeping with Mr. Lincoln's sentiments, if he did say it.
"We didn't go into the war to put down slavery, but to put the flag back, and to act differ at this moment, would, I have no doubt, not only weaken our cause but smack of bad faith; for I never should have had votes enough to send me here if the people had supposed I should try to use my power to upset slavery."--Abraham Lincoln
Martin H. Greenberg and Charles G. Waugh, editor, The Price of Freedom: Slavery and the Civil War, Volume I, p. 319 (Hans L. Trefousse, "Lincoln and Race Relations").
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
Many thanks, Rose. for that Lincoln quote. It it most certain he said that, and it clearly demonstrates that he was honoring his pledge to not interfere with slavery where it existed -- that his primary duty was to keep the Union together.
As for the statement attributed to Grant, if he said it, fine. If he did not, I'd sooner see it scratched permanently from any discussion. There is enough myth out there to cloud our findings without bringing in another.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
...As for the statement attributed to Grant, if he said it, fine. If he did not, I'd sooner see it scratched permanently from any discussion. There is enough myth out there to cloud our findings without bringing in another.
Ole
Ole - You can count on me not to bring it up again. I'd rather go swatting hornet's nests. - Joe
Hey... by the way... although we got a bit off track from time to time here, I got directly and indirectly very good answers to my initial question. I think I now fully understand what occurred and how. Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond.
Hey... by the way... although we got a bit off track from time to time here, I got directly and indirectly very good answers to my initial question. I think I now fully understand what occurred and how. Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond.
And in that, your comment about swatting hornets' nests falls right into place. Although there are longer threads, close to 190 on your question puts the stick clearly in your hands.
A good time was had by all. Thank you.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The numbers of US conscripted negroes...fairlty insignificant from what I've found.Were they paid, fed, clothed, armed, trusted w/ govt equip? Who said the following, I may not be recalling the quote exactly. "Give a man a rifle in his hands and an eagle upon his chest and he is no longer a slave." Their pay was later adjusted... incidently it's interesting to see who pushed for the unequal pay. Was it fair? No.
Would you be willing to deliver you or your family into slavery?
Odd how when i quote from those books, you disagree with me, only to say your opinions are formed from reading them.
Every negro after 63 was conscripted, i gave you bthe OR order for the dat, thats over 75% of the 99k you listed earlier, or in other words the number of negros who volunertaily served is very small, from Southern States.
In then AWI the Uk offered freedom to any slave, and then put them in the army, typically the Uk Army had 10% of ration sytrength made up of negros. More negros fought for the Uk against the colonies than did Southern states negros fight for the Union by choice.
I think your quote is one by F Douglas.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
No, let me just ask a question.
Do either of these statements make more sense than the other?:
I. It cannot be proved that "X" did occur; therefore it did not occur.
II. It cannot be proved that "X" did not occur; therefore it did occur.
On one hand you just have someone, albeit credentialed, saying it did not occur. On the other hand you have someone saying it did occur. Even though the statement and the arguments on either hand may be present, neither position may be absolutely proven to be correct.
Did Farragut really say "**** the torpedos.....", or did "someone" just say he did?
Nothing wrong with your logic premise.
Caeser acount of the Gallic war, is supported only by fragments of mil Tribunes acounts, yet because its the fullest acount, despite haveing overtones of mil dispatches for the masses, of how im winning the war,
its the bench mark or understanding.
Livy wrote that Maharbal said the Hannibal after Cannae that he knew how to win a battle but not how to win a war,( he wanted to ride on Rome and be there in x days) but he got that from a Greek source, when Maharbal said it to Hanny at the Trebbia, (time and space distances work from Trebbia but not Cannea) and used it for dramatic effect post Cannae, because in hindsight he looked back and thought that was the moment Rome was saved from defeat, of course he did not understand that Hanny waged war not in the Roman ,manner but in the Greek manner.
Ancient history relies of fragemets of primary sources, but no one says, lets throw them out because they are not likly, self supported by other acounts, unless very lucky.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
OK, for you I will do this (tho i think itis silly beyond belief).
I cannot provide a link as my correspondence with mister Simon is private and not on some board. Also I do not want to impare my relationship with Mr. Simon by any means. If one want's to contact him, one can find his address via the ULysses S. Grant Association web page (I think, otherwise figure it out by yourself, tho I don't think he would be happy to be deluged by a bunch of folks asking the same qustion.) I try to restrict my correspondence to significant issues, and was mighty hesitant to waste his time on this isssue.
Here is the email, (I have deleted my personal info, as I get enough junk mail/spam):
(name deleted),
The statement attributed to Grant has floated about on the internet for years, repeated often enough that some have thought it authentic. It is not.
As for our site, The university made a change requiring the word "twister" instead of www. Normally those using the old form are redirected, but this is not invariable. This annoys me, but the site is apparently always accessible through google when all else fails. Thanks for pointing this out.
John Y. Simon Ulysses S. Grant Association Morris Library Southern Illinois University Carbondale, IL 62901 (618) 453-2773 (office) (618) 453-6119 (fax)
From: (my Email adress deleted) Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:58 PM To: John Y. Simon Subject: Grant, slavery
Mr. Simon,
A contoversey has erupted on my CW discussion board, and i was wondering if you could help me out.
It is suggested that Grant either said or wrote something to the effect of:
"if I ever was led to believe that the War was about slavery, I would be obliged to turn in my sword to my superiors"
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