Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Ole, there is no probably ab*** it... it's a bogus quote or should I say misquote?
Look, i was asked for its source, i provided it.
It seems to me you dont want it to be real because you dont want to accept that the prevailing attitude was to restore the Union, not end slavery pre the EP. Why that is, is beyond me.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
The full title ** this work is The Democratic speaker's hand-book : containing every thing necessary for the defense ** the national democracy in the coming presidential campaign, and for the assault ** the radical enemies ** the county and its constitution / compiled by Matthew Carey, Jr.
This was a piece ** Democratic Party campaign literature for the campaign ** 1868. That is why the 1911 Encyclopedia Britanica was citing it in an article on the Democratic party. -- as a resource for the party's rhetoric for that year.
The author, BTW, is not really named Carey. Matthew Carey, Jr. was a pseudonym for Augustus R. Cazauran, 1820-1889. Cazauran was a well-known playright/adapter in later years associated with the Union Square Theater ** E. M. Palmer in New York. The real Matthew Carey had died in 1839, and was a famous political writer.
Regards,
Tim
Yes i know, but aparantly Union Blues link thinks the book does not exist, and the quote in it appears first in the 1990s.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
No it does not, not least because it does not even know to who and when and why the remake was made. Your proof consists of a link to someone else saying i cant find it. Stunning.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Just as a note to desertions as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Total Desertions to the US Army 199,083. 7 executed by formal sentence (all causes not always desertion).
Regulars: 16,365 (5 were **ficers)
Volunteers: 170,216 (187 were **ficers)
USCT:12,464 (24 were **ficers) not bad *** ** an organization ** 3 Cav, 11 Regt & 4 companies ** Hvy Arty, 10 batteries lt arty & finaly 102 Regiments & 16 companies ** Infantry.
It should be mentioned that desertions in the CW are difficult to classify as desertions were **ten attributed to POW's, Missing but presumed KIA, "French Leave" admin go**s through detached duty and several other admin SNAFU's. Some desertions were counted multiple times etc.
All in all ab*** 10% ** the Union Army decamped over better than 4 years.
CS desertion rate was between 40 & 60% IIRC. Though this was w/ a far higher percentage ** "French Leave." As the fortunes ** war progressed into a downward spiral desertion rates dramitically increased.
93,441 black men enlisted from former slaves states. Total who served in USCT (or state equivelant) 186,097 *** ** a total ** ab*** 2 & 3/4 millions.
Imagine if you will the CS managing to tap the market for the USCT... they didn't even try until 1865.
Source: Statistical Record ** the Armies ** the United States by Frederick Phisterer 1883.
But because it exists in more than one reference proves what?.
It proves people were using a false quote; knowingly or unknowingly.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
USA and CSA total desertions were very close in % terms.
The CSA tapped the market from day one, they did non combat roles that freed up whites for them. and their masters were paid not the slaves. I doubt many were revelling in their slavery..
According to the statistical record compiled in 1883 there were just 7 executions by sentence. I know there were quite a few more executions w/out any kind of sentence and many were conducted w/out the benefit of trial.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
It seems to me you dont want it to be real because you dont want to accept that the prevailing attitude was to restore the Union, not end slavery pre the EP. Why that is, is beyond me.
The Union could have given a spit about slavery pre EP. The South slaveowning politico elite was interested in the preservation of slavery.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Evil?, immoral?, those are theological questions, the answer to which is in Bible, there is no mention of slavery being immoral or evil.
Wrong to you, but not wrong acording to God, or Christ, who do not consider the colour of the sking to matter one whit, and instead God directly laid down the conditions of slavery, treating them like cattle is your version, Gods is somewhat different. Treating them as cattle was the CS version actually; not mine or my family.
Slavery was not wrong, because it was not unlawful, and it does not brake any of Gods laws, making it not immoral or evil. Under what rules was slavery abolished in England... please look to it and elaborate. It wasn't abolished because slavery was a wonderfully moral institution.
What does that have to do with conscription?, a conscripted soldier losses the fredom to chose. A conscripted soldier was paid, clothed, fed etc... English conscripts? You know more about that than I.
Your refering to conditions that do not apply to a conscripted/drafted 1860 US Soldier, or the Uk mil at the same time, whioch was what io was talking about and referencing, along with earlier US legal posistion on conscription. You failed to either make that clear or specify. If I missed your clarification my apologies. My experiance w/ those who call soldiers slaves... they haven't served.
Is that because you own your wife?, or can she chose to bed whoever she wishes?. When the slave master comes to her bed... what choice does she have? Fight and be beaten or sold from her family? Sure some negro familys were broken up,by sale, but no more than white familys were broken up by the breakdown of the family, many States slave codes, SC for instance the only Southern State in 1860, along with many Northern states, when emancipated require you to leave the State, unless you enter back into slavery, usually to stay close to family.
I know the figures for breakdown familys through slavery, do you?. Yes, to a degree but when slaves aren't allowed literacy or given very complete records the breakdowns are... questionable. And knowing the penchant for complete records in the CS... very questionable indeed.
Well yes. But i was talking about the condition of being, drafted into any war that you did not agree with and executed or punished if you did not fight in it.
To what purpose?, you asked the same question again. Asked and already answered. I had to ask it twice... as it was ignored completely.
Depends how you measure it, the average slave lived a longer life than when he was free in the 1890s, ate a better diet, earnt a higher wage, lived in more sq feet of housing,suffered less dietary insuffiecency,lost less days sick, lost fewer children in the early years of life. Balderdash..My point is, unless you know something about the condition of slavery, compare it to something, what you excpect without knowing something about the condition of slavery, is rather pointless. While never having lived as a slave I think I have a pretty decent grasp about slavery. Would you be willing to sell yourself into American Slavery of the 1860's? If not... then you know in your very soul slavery to have been wrong or at the very least not for you.
Just a few titles for you.
Black Resistance Before the Civil War Cheek The Strange Career of Jim Crow Woodward. Booker T Washigton and the Negro Place in American Life Spencer The White Response to Black Emancipation Synnestvedt
Federal Writers Project, Alabama Slave Narratives.
Fogel & EngermanTime on the Cross the Economics of American Negro Slavery.
Gates Agriculture and the Civil War.
Glatthaar Forged in Battle The Civil War Alliance of Black Soldiers and White Officers
McPherson, Marching Toward Freedom.
Meltzer, In Their Own Words A History of the American Negro 1619-1865
Rose,Rehearsal for Reconstruction The Port Royal Experiment
Trudeau, Like Men of War.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
No it does not, not least because it does not even know to who and when and why the remake was made. Your proof consists of a link to someone else saying i cant find it. Stunning.
The link is to an established Grant researcher and who was just one of many who questioned the authenticity of the quote.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
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