Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I have not attempted to show that slvery is/was a moral right, but a legal right to own poperty. Others argued and introdiced the morality, which as any minister will tell is not condemned in the Bible, hence the higher law argument is fatally flawed, being not based on scripture.
No one has argued that slavery was illegal.. immoral, evil yes. Well treating men and women as cattle simply because o.f the color o.f their skin seems a touch wrong to me. So you are saying that slavery was/is not wrong because it was not illegal? If I am incorrect in my impression please be kind enough to correct me.
Yes quite a lot. Apparently; if a man decides he is being treated as a slave by the US military... and then lacks the knowhow to not reenlist... is that slavery or a lack o.f common sense? The US Army enlists men for as little as two years and I believe the max is 6 years for the USAF & USN. There is no draft so an individual cannot be born into military service. 6 years o.f three hots & a cot, a roo.f (sometimes canvas or just a poncho) over your head... GI Bill, VA loans, some o.f the finest technical training in the world and most importantly a soldier doesn't have to buy himself free to be discharged... The unit CO doesn't have a right to bed your wife or sell your family away from you. Slavery? Not by any stretch o.f the imagination. As I asked, when did you serve and in what military? Did you think yourself a slave? I'm curious as my service was a far cry from slavery by any stretch o.f the imagination. All in all the military, while not necessarily always enjoyable or easy (kind o.f like life in general eh?), was a good experiance for me and many others. I would wager a majority o.f veterans might agree.
Incidently, as I apparently missed quite a lot from your brilliant riposte... please explain what I missed.
Slavery was certainly not all goodness and light; I rather expect the reverse to have been true. I have always wondered abo.u.t the motivation o.f those who claim otherwise. Devils advocate maybe?... or as my wife might say. "Any chance they'll sell their family in? No? Thought not."
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Relaying a probably invented quote in no way proves its authenticity.
Ole
Ole, there is no probably ab*** it... it's a bogus quote or should I say misquote?
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
The soldier/slavery discussion you are having reminds me ** a joke by Bill Maher. (paraphrasing his words as best I can, not mine. He said that a police **ficer "complained" that people don't realize how tough his job really is. Bill said something to the effect ** duh, didn't you realize that when you signed up. It's like a proctologist coming home from work one day and saying, "I'm doing nothing but looking at a**h**es all day long." Uh huh, that's what you signed up for. Everyone realizes or should realize what they are getting themselves involved in when he or she chooses his or her career or path in life. Just a thought.
Bart
__________________ "Thank You....Noooo."
Major Charles Emerson Winchester III M.A.S.H. 4077th
That soure is concerned with Sn Washburn ** Ill asking Grant, and other leading US **ficers, on behalf ** the JCCOTW for his personal views, the committe wanted the mil to endorse its desire to pressure the administarton from a mil perspective to end slavery, it wanted to do so from a ideological stand, but was persuaded that the mil, and general feeling in the Army itself nexpressed through the **ficers brought before the committe, that it would be more in tune with a argument ** mil neccissity.
The full title ** this work is The Democratic speaker's hand-book : containing every thing necessary for the defense ** the national democracy in the coming presidential campaign, and for the assault ** the radical enemies ** the county and its constitution / compiled by Matthew Carey, Jr.
This was a piece ** Democratic Party campaign literature for the campaign ** 1868. That is why the 1911 Encyclopedia Britanica was citing it in an article on the Democratic party. -- as a resource for the party's rhetoric for that year.
The author, BTW, is not really named Carey. Matthew Carey, Jr. was a pseudonym for Augustus R. Cazauran, 1820-1889. Cazauran was a well-known playright/adapter in later years associated with the Union Square Theater ** E. M. Palmer in New York. The real Matthew Carey had died in 1839, and was a famous political writer.
Just as a note to desertions as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Total Desertions to the US Army 199,083. 7 executed by formal sentence (all causes not always desertion).
Regulars: 16,365 (5 were **ficers)
Volunteers: 170,216 (187 were **ficers)
USCT:12,464 (24 were **ficers) not bad *** ** an organization ** 3 Cav, 11 Regt & 4 companies ** Hvy Arty, 10 batteries lt arty & finaly 102 Regiments & 16 companies ** Infantry.
It should be mentioned that desertions in the CW are difficult to classify as desertions were **ten attributed to POW's, Missing but presumed KIA, "French Leave" admin go**s through detached duty and several other admin SNAFU's. Some desertions were counted multiple times etc.
All in all ab*** 10% ** the Union Army decamped over better than 4 years.
CS desertion rate was between 40 & 60% IIRC. Though this was w/ a far higher percentage ** "French Leave." As the fortunes ** war progressed into a downward spiral desertion rates dramitically increased.
93,441 black men enlisted from former slaves states. Total who served in USCT (or state equivelant) 186,097 *** ** a total ** ab*** 2 & 3/4 millions.
Imagine if you will the CS managing to tap the market for the USCT... they didn't even try until 1865.
Source: Statistical Record ** the Armies ** the United States by Frederick Phisterer 1883.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I'm reminded of a joke as well. Plumber school day one: 1. It stinks. 2. It rolls down hill. 3. Never lick your fingers. In sort know what you've gotten yourself into.
Having done my time in the USAF & USAFR I can guarantee no one holds a gun to your head and forces a reenlistment. Stop Gap? Well that happens but it is quite a bit rarer than the media would have us believe. Critically short carer fields... usually career fields that require multiple volunteering to get into in the first place. EOD, Intel, Combat Control, Combat Medic etc...
And there is compensation for stop gap or recalls to active duty.
I can't say as I know a single retiree or veteran in general who isn't proud of his service. I can't imagine anyone tasteless enough to walk into a VFW or American Legion post and call the men sitting there former slaves... many of whow were draftees.
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Originally Posted by JerseyBart
Shane,
The soldier/slavery discussion you are having reminds me ** a joke by Bill Maher. (paraphrasing his words as best I can, not mine. He said that a police **ficer "complained" that people don't realize how tough his job really is. Bill said something to the effect ** duh, didn't you realize that when you signed up. It's like a proctologist coming home from work one day and saying, "I'm doing nothing but looking at a**h**es all day long." Uh huh, that's what you signed up for. Everyone realizes or should realize what they are getting themselves involved in when he or she chooses his or her career or path in life. Just a thought.
Bart
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
I think everyone needs to calm down, and eat an apple.
Wowser, soldiers compared to slaves? Yipes! I can't believe anyone would seriously ascribe to that comparison. Not in my house anyway (military all over the family tree).
I know I shall regret everlastingly even attempting a post on this thread, being mindful o.f. my ignorant and uneducated status, but I will add for the sake o.f. all the religious arguments being attempted here that I have in my little prayer book, "Blessed Be God", (being a small Catholic book of teaching I received from my deceased mother), that one o.f. the four sins "Crying to Heaven for Vengeance" is 'defrauding laborers o.f. their wages'.
I am sure somewhere in the deepest recesses of my upbringing I could bring up where that was in the Bible, but as school is starting now, I do not have the time nor the inclination.
If you want to know the other three sins, just ask.
Just thought you'd like to know.
__________________ "Live in the world you inhabit. Look upon things as they are. Take them as you find them. Make the best of them. Turn them to your advantage." - R. E. Lee
Amen to that Shane. I have a number of vets in my family and they are all proud of their service and we are all proud of them for their service. My dad voluntarily joined and served in the Navy from 1968-1972. I picked up his dog tags yesterday and said, "Dad, number me." He rattled off the numbers on his dog tags as if he had just been discharged on Saturday.
And while I'm at it, thank you for your service to our country. Thank you very much.
Bart
__________________ "Thank You....Noooo."
Major Charles Emerson Winchester III M.A.S.H. 4077th
No one has argued that slavery was illegal.. immoral, evil yes.
Evil?, immoral?, those are theological questions, the answer to which is in Bible, there is no mention of slavery being immoral or evil.
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Well treating men and women as cattle simply because o.f the color o.f their skin seems a touch wrong to me.
Wrong to you, but not wrong acording to God, or Christ, who do not consider the colour of the sking to matter one whit, and instead God directly laid down the conditions of slavery, treating them like cattle is your version, Gods is somewhat different.
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So you are saying that slavery was/is not wrong because it was not illegal? If I am incorrect in my impression please be kind enough to correct me.
Slavery was not wrong, because it was not unlawful, and it does not brake any of Gods laws, making it not immoral or evil.
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Yes quite a lot. Apparently; if a man decides he is being treated as a slave by the US military... and then lacks the knowhow to not reenlist... is that slavery or a lack o.f common sense?
What does that have to do with conscription?, a conscripted soldier losses the fredom to chose.
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The US Army enlists men for as little as two years and I believe the max is 6 years for the USAF & USN. There is no draft so an individual cannot be born into military service. 6 years o.f three hots & a cot, a roo.f (sometimes canvas or just a poncho) over your head... GI Bill, VA loans, some o.f the finest technical training in the world and most importantly a soldier doesn't have to buy himself free to be discharged...
Your refering to conditions that do not apply to a conscripted/drafted 1860 US Soldier, or the Uk mil at the same time, whioch was what io was talking about and referencing, along with earlier US legal posistion on conscription.
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The unit CO doesn't have a right to bed your wife or sell your family away from you.
Is that because you own your wife?, or can she chose to bed whoever she wishes?. Sure some negro familys were broken up,by sale, but no more than white familys were broken up by the breakdown of the family, many States slave codes, SC for instance the only Southern State in 1860, along with many Northern states, when emancipated require you to leave the State, unless you enter back into slavery, usually to stay close to family.
I know the figures for breakdown familys through slavery, do you?.
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As I asked, when did you serve and in what military? Did you think yourself a slave?
Uk RE, 1978-2000.
In my time i was sent to places, to do things i would not otherwise have chosen to do, or face a court and take my chances. Thats about as close as i come to feeling like a slave, but i was originaly talking about the US oposistion to conscription, it being likened to the UK use of hired soldiery and opossed to, at that time the american concept of Vol service.
Unlike Uk Crown who owned the commision of the officers, and had soldiers who served for life, as an example of how the Government used the Army not only against the states eniemies, but against the citizens as well.
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I'm curious as my service was a far cry from slavery by any stretch o.f the imagination. All in all the military, while not necessarily always enjoyable or easy (kind o.f like life in general eh?), was a good experiance for me and many others. I would wager a majority o.f veterans might agree.
Well yes. But i was talking about the condition of being, drafted into any war that you did not agree with and executed or punished if you did not fight in it.
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Incidently, as I apparently missed quite a lot from your brilliant riposte... please explain what I missed.
To what purpose?, you asked the same question again. Asked and already answered.
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Slavery was certainly not all goodness and light; I rather expect the reverse to have been true. I have always wondered abo.u.t the motivation o.f those who claim otherwise. Devils advocate maybe?... or as my wife might say. "Any chance they'll sell their family in? No? Thought not."
Depends how you measure it, the average slave lived a longer life than when he was free in the 1890s, ate a better diet, earnt a higher wage, lived in more sq feet of housing,suffered less dietary insuffiecency,lost less days sick, lost fewer children in the early years of life. My point is, unless you know something about the condition of slavery, compare it to something, what you excpect without knowing something about the condition of slavery, is rather pointless.
__________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Benjamin Franklin, 1759
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