Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I don't have a good background on Sumter, and I'm inspired to do some reading.
Some thoughts: Fort Sumter looks like a military struggle(forts, troops, guns), but it was actually a political struggle between Lincoln and Davis.
Lincoln: I cannot preserve the Union by surrendering federal posts to rebels.
Davis: I cannot create a new nation by allowing the US a permanent post in a major harbor of our new state.
An interesting parallel would be the "Battle" of Lexington in 1775. Enshrined on a monument on Battle Green are Captain Parker's orders to his company, "don't fire, unless fired upon, but if they want a war, let it begin here." Parker's fifty minutemen(same as Anderson's fifty), couldn't stop the 800 British troops from marching through Lexington. They were making a political gesture. Lincoln was saying the nearly the same thing as Parker, and they were both lucky in their opponents.
Mathew
While im not escpecially intrested in Sumpter, its just i have lived so long so as get around to reading more than is probably good for me on the WBTS!, on the plus side that means you get to comprehend more viewpoints, but does on occasion mean you miss the wood for a trees...
couple of points.
82 was the garrison strength, Lincon gave orders to Scott to put into operation plans to retake any federal post surrendered, before he took office and just after he was elected.12 December 1860, a full three months before he had taken the oath of office, Lincoln was already acquainting at least one of his future subordinates with his policy of usurpation when he sent the following, and characteristically secret, message to General Winfield Scott: "Please present my respects to the general, and tell him, confidentially, I shall be obliged to him to be as well prepared as he can to either hold or retake the forts, as the case may require, at and after the inauguration." Anderson Nov orders to stay put in Moutrie by two weeks later replaced by a discretionry orders from Scott through Lorenzo to allow Anderson more options on how/where to deploy. Problem being Scott was acting on prompts from Lincoln who was going to be Pres, while the Pres at the time had already acted differently and was thus amazed and confused as to Anderson actions.
Lincoln knew exactly what the plan was, only how to execute it to the best advantage remained unclear to him.
There is also the tariff collection point of view, Adams (when in the course of hum,an events) makes a good argument that lincolns aim of holding Sumpter was tied up with a policy of regulation of commerce in the form of tax collection at the point of entry to the Harbour.
I based my remark about Anderson's lack of supplies on Bruce Catton's writing that Anderson blurted out to the state authorities that he only had supplies for a few days. If Catton repeating a myth? Could be. Certainly the sources you quote make it seem like Anderson could have fed his men for weeks, at the least.
Mathew
"Gentleman if you do not batter us into submision we will starved out in few days" Anderson to the 2 man tean sent with the ultimatium, (Foot Vol I), which is quite a good acount and more in depth than the only Catton book i have. Catton lists on inagriation day the QM report passed on by Anderson (Catton This Hallowed ground page 17) "there were 6 barrells of flour, 6 more or hard tack,3 of sugar, 2 vinager,24 salt pork and odds and ends".
Dailly rations are 18 ounces meat, 20 flour per man, 82 men therfore predict a know half or full ration limit to those stores. Barrels are 240lbs capacity, hard tack might be the only unkown without a little worth, i can worth out the calorific contect on bread (3lbs is 3500 calories or so from memory)etc to see if they were starving, whichis what Northern papers purport but not from Andersons and his QM do you read this level, besides, he had the ability to procure any and all stores from charleston untill these were stopped.
"I confess that I would not be willing to risk my reputation on an attempt to throw re-enforcements into this harbor within the time for our relief rendered necessary by the limited supply of our provisions, and with a view of holding possession of the same with a force of less than twenty thousand good and well-disciplined men."(41) Somehow, "limited supply of our provisions" translated into Tarbell's narrative as "a week's provisions." Another example of this loose dealing with important historical data, which is prevalent in Northern accounts of the war, is the following quotation from John T. Morse, Jr.: "On the same day [4 March 1861] there came a letter from Major Anderson.... There were shut up in the fort together a certain number of men and a certain quantity of biscuit and of pork; when the men should have eaten the biscuit and the pork, which they would probably do in about four weeks, they would have to go away. The problem thus became direct, simple, and urgent."(42) In his Diary, Secretary Welles likewise mentioned "certain intelligence of a distressing character from Major Anderson at Fort Sumter, stating that his supplies were almost exhausted, that he could get no provisions in Charleston, and that he with his small command would be wholly destitute in about six weeks."(43)
To the contrary, on the twenty-fifth of February, J.G. Foster, Captain of Engineers with the Sumter garrison, wrote to General Joshua G. Totten in Washington that "the health of the command is very good, with no sickness among the officers or men of sufficient importance to take them from a single day's duty. Major Anderson is and has been well, and there is no foundation for the report of his illness."(45) Certainly, if the condition of the garrison was as desperate as it was alleged to have been a week later when Lincoln took office, Foster's letter would certainly have indicated such. Would not starvation or even undernourishment have been "of sufficient importance" to mention in his report if such were really the condition of Anderson's men? Secretary Welles also claimed that Anderson "could get no provisions in Charleston," and yet Foster contradicted this statement in his letter to Totten dated the twenty-sixth of February that "our supplies and mails come from town [Charleston] as usual."(46)
Foster's testimony requires closer examination. As Jefferson Davis pointed, "It should not be forgotten that, during the early occupation of Fort Sumter by a garrison the attitude of which was at least offensive, no restriction had been put upon their privilege of purchasing in Charleston fresh provisions, or any delicacies or comforts not directly tending to the supply of the means needful to hold the fort for an indefinite time."(47) A statement which appeared in the New York Herald of 8 March 1861 supports Davis' assertion: "The War Department today received letters from Major Anderson dated the 4th but they contain nothing of especial importance. The most friendly feelings exist between him and the South Carolina authorities. Postal facilities are still open to him, and privileges of marketing, to a limited extent, continue."(48) Anderson's access to provisions and the delivery of mail to the fort was not terminated until the seventh of April — only after it had become known to the Confederate Government that a war expedition had been secretly launched and would soon arrive at the Charleston harbor.
Anderson to Samuel Cooper, 28 February 1861; quoted by Simon Cameron, Official Records: Armies, Series I, Volume I, page 197.
42. John T. Morse, Jr., Abraham Lincoln (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1892), Volume I, page 244.
43. Gideon Welles, Diary of Gideon Welles (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin and Company, 1911), Volume I, page 4.
44. Davis, Brother Against Brother, pages 132-133, 150.
45. J.G. Foster to Joshua G. Totten, Official Records: Armies, Series I, Volume I, page 186.
46. Foster to Totten, op. cit., page 187.
47. Davis, Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Volume I, page 289.
I'm a bit perplexed on Anderson's insistence that he had plenty of supplies. He must have been either putting up a bold front or woefully ignorant of his inventory. By the 12th, he had plenty of salt pork, but nothing else. Sources reluctantly available upon request.
"Physical threat" is the red herring here. I sounds better than "we want it now."
As to the occupation of Sumter ca. Christmas being "without and against orders," I'd recommend noting the signature on those orders: Floyd. The orders also gave Anderson the "out" of saving his troops rather than contesting what was no more than a point of honor. And, to put the movement in context, Anderson had watched the Stars and Stripes pulled down and replace with the Palmetto Flag over Castle Pinckney, the Customs House, and other places. He had to conclude that the indefensible (from the landward side) nature of Moultrie. From Sumter, he was better situated to protect his small command from an aggressive move that he cannot but have expected.
Ole
Well i expect your source is Anderson surrender report, in which he lists the salt pork as being the only stores left, 24 barrells of salt pork will last 82 men how long?.
As to your without and against orders qoute, does that not that come from an inquiry from the President, not Floyd to Anderson as to why he was at Sumpter, so i believe your combining Floyd and the president disbelif and demands for explantion from Anderson, perhaps if its no trouble you can provide the full passage for me?, as im going by memory.
Edit, dont worry found them.
In a letter to Anderson dated 27 December 1860, Buchanan's Secretary of War John B. Floyd wrote, "Intelligence has reached here this morning that you have abandoned Fort Moultrie, spiked your guns, burned the carriages, and gone to Fort Sumter. It is not believed, because there is no order for any such movement".
In a meeting with Senators Jefferson Davis and R.M.T. Hunter, Buchanan stated, "I call God to witness, you gentlemen, better than anybody, know that this is not only without but against my orders" (quoted by General Samuel W. Crawford, Genesis of the Civil War [New York: J.A. Hill and Company, 1887
First of April, QM of the post, Second Lieutenant Norman J. Hall reported to Anderson that there was "at least thirty-five days of comfortable subsistence for the command."
This really ought to put the issue (quantity of stores at the post) to bed, imo.
Then why does Anderson tell South Carolina reps that he cannot sustain himself due to lack of supplies? Why does Lincoln get word when he gets to Washington that Anderson has only about 5 weeks of supplies?
Or is it your contention that the South, by Davis's order, fired on Sumter because the troops within could wait out any attempt at 'peaceable secession?'
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Then why does Anderson tell South Carolina reps that he cannot sustain himself due to lack of supplies?.
His motivation for that comment you mean?, i have no idea, it was his duty to hold the post as per his orders required, if that ment a little deception its not clear he would not use deception. His motivation however is largelly irrelavent, the only relavent fact is how much supply he was in possesion of, and his QM is explicite on this, and every OC is required to know the state of supply is he not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Why does Lincoln get word when he gets to Washington that Anderson has only about 5 weeks of supplies?
This is a better line of inquiry, what Lincoln knows is a million miles from what we all know, he was dependednt on the findings of others, from what lincoln was told, prinicply G Wells,"certain intelligence of a distressing character from Major Anderson at Fort Sumter, stating that his supplies were almost exhausted, that he could get no provisions in Charleston, and that he with his small command would be wholly destitute in about six weeks." He was being given a second hand acount of a report from Anderson that indicated that from between 4-6 weeks his supplys would run out, from two different cabinet members who read this "I confess that I would not be willing to risk my reputation on an attempt to throw re-enforcements into this harbor within the time for our relief rendered necessary by the limited supply of our provisions, and with a view of holding possession of the same with a force of less than twenty thousand good and well-disciplined men." from Anderson latest report.
On the same day [4 March 1861] there came a letter from Major Anderson to John T. Morse, Jr "There were shut up in the fort together a certain number of men and a certain quantity of biscuit and of pork; when the men should have eaten the biscuit and the pork, which they would probably do in about four weeks, they would have to go away. The problem thus became direct, simple, and urgent."
Now this private letter was given to the adminstration and from it they aduce the level of Anderson current supplies, but Anderson QM report show the actual level of supply and its fair to say the adminstration was looking to work out how much supply he had without asking directly or him telling them, being as all comms were passing through CSA hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Or is it your contention that the South, by Davis's order, fired on Sumter because the troops within could wait out any attempt at 'peaceable secession?'
Oh its clear that the relief sqd was going to enter the Fort before lincoln would meet the peace commisoner, that was to occur just after hell froze over.
Peacfull secesion was an acomplished fact and had been for a considerable period, the posistion then existing was one of breach of faith beteen the USA government an an independent state in repsect of an agreement to remain at status quo with no movement of garrison in the harbour which would be supplied by SC and no resupply of any kind from the USA, in normal terms resupply against a treaty stipulation is a cause for war.
On the twenty-ninth of March, he (Lincoln) had ordered that three ships — the Pocahontas, the Pawnee, and the Harriet Lane — together with three hundred men and provisions be made ready to sail for the Charleston harbor. Lincoln to Cameron, in Official Records: Armies, Series I, Volume I, page 226; Inclosure No. 1, op. cit., page 227.
These orders were all marked private. On the first of April, he sent a message to Commandant Andrew H. Foote at Navy Yard in Brooklyn, New York to "fit out the Powhatan to go to sea at the earliest possible moment under sealed orders."Lincoln to Andrew H. Foote, in op. cit., page 229
These instructions were confirmed with another telegram which contained these words: "You will fit out the Powhatan without delay. Lieutenant Porter will relieve Captain Mercer in command of her. She is bound on secret service; and you will under no circumstances communicate to the Navy Department the fact that she is fitting out." In all, consisted of eight warships, carrying twenty-six guns and one thousand, four hundred men.
What was worse was that the day it sailled, the CSA was made aware of it, and set in motion the reduction of Sumpter.
And the objection of these warships showing up to resupply Ft. Sumter enabled the South to fire on it? It is your contention, along with others, this justified a true threat to South Carolina, Charleston, the South as a whole? I know the details on the resupply effort, just as South Carolina and Charleston knew. So how did this fort and its small garrison rate being fired upon and thus starting a war that claimed hundreds of thousands of lives?
Lincoln could have directed Fox, Seward, Cameron, fill in blank here, to stuff Sumter with hardtack and saltpork and in what way did this constitute a threat to the South? Even if an extra 200 green, hardly-trained troops managed to be off-loaded into the fort, again, where was the military threat? As you said, 'peaceable secession' had taken place, South Carolina and others had declared it so. But no military move against any territory taken over by those seceded states had been touched. Why was it so important for the South to fire on Ft. Sumter? Even if hell was freezing over, would not it have been better for the South to just wait?
Or was there another reason to 'sprinkle blood' upon the faces of the people of the South? Did Davis and his new 'government' need to have a blatant act of violence to forward its goals?
Sorry, Anderson and his men, were under the impression, QM report notwithstanding, that they were in a bad position and they could not hold out with out resupply. The garrison was small, the majority of the cannon pointed in directions that would bring no or little harm to the city, and Anderson, in spite of being provoked, restrained his men from returning fire, doing his best not to break the peace.
Doesn't wash.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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