Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
VA secession vote, 5/23/1861, troops at polling places
John,
I checked to see what David Detzer's Dissonance had to say about the use of troops at polling places during the plebiscite on secession in Virginia on May 23rd, 1861. Here's Detzer:
=====
All across Virginia on this day average voters had their own say on secession. The results of the referendum were: 96,750 in favor of secession, 32,134 against.
In reality, those numbers constituted a sham. Virginia already housed thousands of out-of-state Confederate soldiers on its soil.
Like most states, Virginia was a loosely sewn garment. Her southwestern counties, where men like Henry Wise and Edmund Ruffin lived, were avidly secessionist; but along the Potomac a goodly portion of the population retained mixed feelings. Many in that region had either been born in the North or had relatives there. The western counties of the state were firm in their unionism. Troops were sent to polling places near Harpers Ferry to overawe those who might contemplate voting against the resolution. In Jefferson County (where Harpers Ferry was) the tactic worked; many frightened voters stayed home on the day of the referendum; but in Berkley County, just to the west, the troops faced such a strong and violent opposition they quietly returned to their barracks. Further west, in Morgan County, the vote against secession was six-to-one. Such counties, and their neighbors, would soon make up the state of West Virginia.
[Note: italics are in Detzer's book]
=====
It is interesting to note how other events happened around this:
this very day, the Kentucky legislature, after continuous debate since January on the question of secession, proclaimed the state's neutrality and adjourned.
on the evening of May 23rd, Federal troops crossed the Potomac and occupied Alexandria
on the afternoon of May 23rd, Ben Butler (newly arrived in Ft. Monroe) ordered a recon of the town of Hampton in Virginia. Some 779 men of the 1st VT regiment "marched" (strolled might be more like it; it was about an hour's walk) into town, checking to see what water supplies were available for the most part, but also to see if there was a force of rebels nearby. Finding none, they returned to Ft. Monroe before dark.
a slave named Luke and 2 other slaves followed them back, arriving about dusk, and asked for asylum. The matter was referred to Butler the next day. Major J. B. Cary,VA Volunteers, appeared at the fort demanding the return of the slaves. Butler knew Cary from the 1860 Democratic Convention in Charleston. Butler said he would give a receipt to the slaves owner, but would not return them. Their owner was Colonel Mallory, VA volunteers. Butler planned to use the three fugitives as laborers, but he regarded the slaves as contraband of war. Col. Mallory could have his property back if he came to Ft. Monroe and swore an oath of allegiance to the United States of America.
On the Confederate troops in Virginia, Jefferson Davis had informed the Confederate Congress in late April that some 16,000 of the 35,000 Confederate troops accepted into service at that time were en route to or in Virginia. This would include only troops accepted into service from the states as part of the Provisional Army, or part of the very tiny Regular Army. Any state milita or volunteers would not be included. This probably does not include the Tennessee regiment that was in Virginia in May since Tennessee had not officially seceded at that point, nor the 500 or so Kentucky volunteers with Jackson at Harpers Ferry in early May, nor the Marylanders forming in Virginia in April-May.
Personally, I believe the state would have had a closer vote on May 23rd if the troops had not been present at the polls, but would still have leaned towards secession. Nothing in that should keep us from noticing the intimidation factor involved in having armed men watching as you vote. I believe steps were being taken -- probably only precautionary steps, possibly not-exactly-illegal steps, but steps nonetheless -- to be sure the vote came out the way the secessionists wanted it to come out.
I was born an American citizen and voted for the first time in 1972. I have never seen a uniformed soldier, armed or unarmed, at a polling place when I voted, nor back when my father would take me to the polls with him as a youngster. While I couldn't swear that I had never seen a uniformed police officer at one, I certainly don't recall any. Seeing accounts of troops at the polls in the secession votes in Tennessee and Virginia can only make me say this was a highly unusual event, and one that should inspire all observers to look suspiciously on their presence and the reasons for it.
I checked to see what David Detzer's Dissonance had to say about the use of troops at polling places during the plebiscite on secession in Virginia on May 23rd, 1861. Here's Detzer:
=====
All across Virginia on this day average voters had their own say on secession. The results of the referendum were: 96,750 in favor of secession, 32,134 against.
In reality, those numbers constituted a sham (sic). Virginia already housed thousands of out-of-state Confederate soldiers on its soil.
Like most states, Virginia was a loosely sewn garment. Her southwestern (sic) counties, where men like Henry Wise and Edmund Ruffin lived, ...
Is this an example of Detzer's accuracy? Wise was from Accomack, and lived in Princess Anne, and Ruffin was from Prince George. Both in the southeast portion of the State.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
were avidly secessionist; but along the Potomac a goodly portion of the population retained mixed feelings. Many in that region had either been born in the North or had relatives there. The western counties of the state were firm in their unionism. Troops were sent to polling places near Harpers Ferry to overawe those who might contemplate voting against the resolution. In Jefferson County (where Harpers Ferry was) the tactic worked;
Jefferson County 813 for secession, 365 against. Somehow, despite all this voter intimidation, 31% of the voters in Jefferson voted their conscience. Or was it the 69% that voted their conscience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
many frightened voters stayed home on the day of the referendum;
How did the Jefferson County voting numbers compare to those of the Presidential elections in November? Might that indicate
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
but in Berkley County, just to the west, the troops faced such a strong and violent opposition they quietly returned to their barracks.
So in Berkeley County it was the militia that was subject to intimidation. Just out of curiosity, just how much militia as stationed in Berkeley County on may 23rd, 1861? Which units were monitoring the polls in Berkeley. How many poling stations were there in Berkeley in 1861?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Further west, in Morgan County, the vote against secession was six-to-one. Such counties, and their neighbors, would soon make up the state of West Virginia.
[Note: italics are in Detzer's book]
So in Morgan County 533 for secession, 126 against, so despite intimidation, 19% voted their conscience and voted for secession, while 81% voted against. Or is it your view that only votes against secession are true expressions of a voter’s conscience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice
Personally, I believe the state would have had a closer vote on May 23rd if the troops had not been present at the polls, but would still have leaned towards secession. Nothing in that should keep us from noticing the intimidation factor involved in having armed men watching as you vote. I believe steps were being taken -- probably only precautionary steps, possibly not-exactly-illegal steps, but steps nonetheless -- to be sure the vote came out the way the secessionists wanted it to come out.
I was born an American citizen and voted for the first time in 1972. I have never seen a uniformed soldier, armed or unarmed, at a polling place when I voted, nor back when my father would take me to the polls with him as a youngster. While I couldn't swear that I had never seen a uniformed police officer at one, I certainly don't recall any. Seeing accounts of troops at the polls in the secession votes in Tennessee and Virginia can only make me say this was a highly unusual event, and one that should inspire all observers to look suspiciously on their presence and the reasons for it.
The account you provided sounds pretty skimpy on details. How many soldiers were stationed at each polling station? What were their orders? If someone voted against secession, were they killed? Taken out and roughed up a bit? Their names taken down? Were they scowled at? Exactly what intimidation happened?
And exactly where did this intimidation happen? I would bet that the very limited numbers of Virginia and Confederate troops in Virginia on May 23rd were stationed at a very limited number of places. In the Tidewater, they were probably Norfolk City, Elizabeth City County and Gloucester County. In the DC area, they were probably concentrated in Alexandria City and Fairfax County. Probably a grouping along the Potomac in Loudon, Jefferson, Berkeley and Hampshire (the largest concentration at Harper’s Ferry in Jefferson). Wise’s troops in western Virginia were in Kanawha, Cabell, Boone and Fayette Counties, and Garnett’s element in Barbour. And probably some in camps of instruction in or near Richmond City. Generally the troops would be on the peripheral counties. That would leave the vast majority of the 140 counties and independent cities free or nearly free of Virginia or Confederate troops. There simply weren’t enough troops to send detachments to every polling place to monitor (or intimidate) the voters. (There were 20 precincts in Augusta County alone, and all the organized Augusta County militia were off at Harper’s Ferry) That would certainly undermine Detzer’s assertion that the vote was “a sham.”
Respectfully,
John Taylor
__________________ "In this Constitution, the citizens of the United States appear dispensing a part of their original power in what manner and what proportion they think fit. They never part with the whole; and they retain the right of recalling what they part with." James Wilson of Pennsylvania, October 28th, 1787
I checked to see what David Detzer's Dissonance had to say about the use of troops at polling places during the plebiscite on secession in Virginia on May 23rd, 1861. Here's Detzer:
=====
All across Virginia on this day average voters had their own say on secession. The results of the referendum were: 96,750 in favor of secession, 32,134 against.
In reality, those numbers constituted a sham. Virginia already housed thousands of out-of-state Confederate soldiers on its soil.
Like most states, Virginia was a loosely sewn garment. Her southwestern counties, where men like Henry Wise and Edmund Ruffin lived, were avidly secessionist; but along the Potomac a goodly portion of the population retained mixed feelings. Many in that region had either been born in the North or had relatives there. The western counties of the state were firm in their unionism. Troops were sent to polling places near Harpers Ferry to overawe those who might contemplate voting against the resolution. In Jefferson County (where Harpers Ferry was) the tactic worked; many frightened voters stayed home on the day of the referendum; but in Berkley County, just to the west, the troops faced such a strong and violent opposition they quietly returned to their barracks. Further west, in Morgan County, the vote against secession was six-to-one. Such counties, and their neighbors, would soon make up the state of West Virginia.
[Note: italics are in Detzer's book]
=====
It is interesting to note how other events happened around this:
this very day, the Kentucky legislature, after continuous debate since January on the question of secession, proclaimed the state's neutrality and adjourned.
on the evening of May 23rd, Federal troops crossed the Potomac and occupied Alexandria
on the afternoon of May 23rd, Ben Butler (newly arrived in Ft. Monroe) ordered a recon of the town of Hampton in Virginia. Some 779 men of the 1st VT regiment "marched" (strolled might be more like it; it was about an hour's walk) into town, checking to see what water supplies were available for the most part, but also to see if there was a force of rebels nearby. Finding none, they returned to Ft. Monroe before dark.
a slave named Luke and 2 other slaves followed them back, arriving about dusk, and asked for asylum. The matter was referred to Butler the next day. Major J. B. Cary,VA Volunteers, appeared at the fort demanding the return of the slaves. Butler knew Cary from the 1860 Democratic Convention in Charleston. Butler said he would give a receipt to the slaves owner, but would not return them. Their owner was Colonel Mallory, VA volunteers. Butler planned to use the three fugitives as laborers, but he regarded the slaves as contraband of war. Col. Mallory could have his property back if he came to Ft. Monroe and swore an oath of allegiance to the United States of America.
On the Confederate troops in Virginia, Jefferson Davis had informed the Confederate Congress in late April that some 16,000 of the 35,000 Confederate troops accepted into service at that time were en route to or in Virginia. This would include only troops accepted into service from the states as part of the Provisional Army, or part of the very tiny Regular Army. Any state milita or volunteers would not be included. This probably does not include the Tennessee regiment that was in Virginia in May since Tennessee had not officially seceded at that point, nor the 500 or so Kentucky volunteers with Jackson at Harpers Ferry in early May, nor the Marylanders forming in Virginia in April-May.
Personally, I believe the state would have had a closer vote on May 23rd if the troops had not been present at the polls, but would still have leaned towards secession. Nothing in that should keep us from noticing the intimidation factor involved in having armed men watching as you vote. I believe steps were being taken -- probably only precautionary steps, possibly not-exactly-illegal steps, but steps nonetheless -- to be sure the vote came out the way the secessionists wanted it to come out.
I was born an American citizen and voted for the first time in 1972. I have never seen a uniformed soldier, armed or unarmed, at a polling place when I voted, nor back when my father would take me to the polls with him as a youngster. While I couldn't swear that I had never seen a uniformed police officer at one, I certainly don't recall any. Seeing accounts of troops at the polls in the secession votes in Tennessee and Virginia can only make me say this was a highly unusual event, and one that should inspire all observers to look suspiciously on their presence and the reasons for it.
Regards,
Tim
On a related note, in Marlyand troops arrested the first 7000 or so voters who attempted to vote for seccesion, taken to prison and held in confinment, their crime was polluting the ballot box and arrested on the authrity of the Mil Commander of the district, since voting was done by placing a colured slip in the ballot it was easy to see who was committing this crime, and was one of the reason for adoption of the Swedish secret ballot vote system post war.
WVa turn outs in 181, was high, as was its regional vote on not seccedding, hardly indication of intimidation.
EDIT due to inability to peply at the foot of the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trice
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA Gov nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops, or is that not what your asking?.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the OC looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has for him, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, Lincolns order means squat inlaw, unless it is to direct it down the correct chain of caommand, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be liable for murder should they take a life in following those orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.A US example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
Cant get a post to stick in the thread so have replied here in the edit.
Is this an example of Detzer's accuracy? Wise was from Accomack, and lived in Princess Anne, and Ruffin was from Prince George. Both in the southeast portion of the State.
More likely a typo on my part. I can't say for sure, since I have already returned the library book. Perhaps you can issue a conditional apology, since you felt the need to attack without even inquiring first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
Jefferson County 813 for secession, 365 against. Somehow, despite all this voter intimidation, 31% of the voters in Jefferson voted their conscience. Or was it the 69% that voted their conscience?
Raw numbers say nothing, John. Most people learn how to lie with statistics early on in their college eductaion, if not sooner.
The point of any "intimidation" would always be at the margins, the swing votes, and those who might not have voted in such a situation. You will find it hard to pin any such number down because we are dealing with real life and people here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
How did the Jefferson County voting numbers compare to those of the Presidential elections in November? Might that indicate
John, feel free to do your own research and tell us the answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
So in Berkeley County it was the militia that was subject to intimidation. Just out of curiosity, just how much militia as stationed in Berkeley County on may 23rd, 1861? Which units were monitoring the polls in Berkeley. How many poling stations were there in Berkeley in 1861?
John, feel free to do your own research and tell us the answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
So in Morgan County 533 for secession, 126 against, so despite intimidation, 19% voted their conscience and voted for secession, while 81% voted against. Or is it your view that only votes against secession are true expressions of a voter’s conscience?
John, I have said nothing at all about "voting their conscience". This is merely you asking rhetorical questions to try to make your argument look good, and trying to put words into the mouths of others that were never there. Please stop trying to attack so much. Try presenting some facts first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
The account you provided sounds pretty skimpy on details. How many soldiers were stationed at each polling station? What were their orders? If someone voted against secession, were they killed? Taken out and roughed up a bit? Their names taken down? Were they scowled at? Exactly what intimidation happened?
John, feel free to do your own research and tell us the answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnTaylor
And exactly where did this intimidation happen? I would bet that the very limited numbers of Virginia and Confederate troops in Virginia on May 23rd were stationed at a very limited number of places. In the Tidewater, they were probably Norfolk City, Elizabeth City County and Gloucester County. In the DC area, they were probably concentrated in Alexandria City and Fairfax County. Probably a grouping along the Potomac in Loudon, Jefferson, Berkeley and Hampshire (the largest concentration at Harper’s Ferry in Jefferson). Wise’s troops in western Virginia were in Kanawha, Cabell, Boone and Fayette Counties, and Garnett’s element in Barbour. And probably some in camps of instruction in or near Richmond City. Generally the troops would be on the peripheral counties. That would leave the vast majority of the 140 counties and independent cities free or nearly free of Virginia or Confederate troops. There simply weren’t enough troops to send detachments to every polling place to monitor (or intimidate) the voters. (There were 20 precincts in Augusta County alone, and all the organized Augusta County militia were off at Harper’s Ferry) That would certainly undermine Detzer’s assertion that the vote was “a sham.”
John, feel free to do your own research and tell us the answers.
However, I am fairly sure you will lose the bet from the quick look around I just undertook. How much is it you wish to wager, and where can I collect the funds?
I have already posted on this forum some of the numbers, starting with Jefferson Davis' presentation of the number of Confederate troops en route to Virginia in late April (more than 40% of all mobilized Confederate troops), plus the Kentucky volunteers and the 3 Tennessee regiments being sent. (Don't you think it interesting that Tennessee is sending troops to Virginia in April and May -- but doesn't vote to leave the Union until June? Wonder why the TN Unionists were outraged by the actions of the governor there?). Then there were the Marylanders (1,000?), and there may have also have been some militia (non-Confederate Provisional Army) in Virginia. Hard to tell in the chaos of those times
In general, there would have been at least 18,000 and very possibly about 25,000 Confederate/other non-Virginia troops in the state of Virginia when the election was held. I don't think there would have been more than 25,000 such by May 23rd, but perhaps there would be. Unless someone is willing to make a trip to the national archives and do a search, that is probably about as close as you will get.
Above and beyond that, of course, you would have the forces of the state of Virginia. R. E. Lee was sending out orders on where to organize these men, generally to a commander specifiying a group of counties to raise them in. They would be gathering locally, organizing into companies that would then be gathered into regiments. Rather than being concentrated as highly as you imagine, they are still scattered throughout the state in the preliminary stages of organization. Lee did not issue these orderes until after the Governor's proclamation of May 3rd. That leaves less than 3 weeks between then and the election. The massive concentration you envision simply had not happened yet, although obviously something like it was in progress.
On June 15, Lee himself did not know how many men Virginia had raised. He described it as "about 35,000", but also said the returns were incomplete and calculated he really had "about 40,000". Why? Because the state arsenals had already issued 56,658 rifles, muskets, and carbines -- although somewhere above 7,000 (maybe 10,000?) of those had gone to Confederate forces.
This is real life, John. You are asking questions about data that probably never did exist -- and trying to imply that the lack of data proves you are right. That is a two-edged sword, although you appear to feel it has only one sharp side. I urge you to pull back on the rhetoric and try to see the situation before coming to a conclusion.
Also please note that one point of all this is that a vote On May 23rd with conflict already in progress, the equivalent of an Army Corps of outside troops in the state, Harpers Ferry and Norfolk Navy Yard already seized, and the Confederate government already settling into Richmond is not the same as a nice quiet vote on whether or not the people want all that to happen or not. If they now vote no, what exactly will happen? Will the Confederates go home? Will they have to face retribution from an angry US government? The situation has been changed irrevocably, and the cards are now stacked against any non-secession vote. This is the sham Detzer is referring to for the most part.
On a related note, in Marlyand troops arrested the first 7000 or so voters who attempted to vote for seccesion, taken to prison and held in confinment, their crime was polluting the ballot box and arrested on the authrity of the Mil Commander of the district, since voting was done by placing a colured slip in the ballot it was easy to see who was committing this crime, and was one of the reason for adoption of the Swedish secret ballot vote system post war.
WVa turn outs in 181, was high, as was its regional vote on not seccedding, hardly indication of intimidation.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (who had already shown a propensity for direct action) have simply left? Would Virginia have to pay recompense to the Federal government for the damage they had done?
I suppose the Confederates might have left, quietly and peacefully. They might have given back the thousands of sets of arms and equipment VA had given them, the guns, etc. Lincoln might have rushed to welcome them, and all might have been forgiven. But it might have been a little hard to see it that way in VA in May of 1861, with the streets and bars full of soldiers and parades.
If the secessionists in VA had wanted a fair and quiet election, they could have had one. All they had to do was to wait before acting, to refrain from attacking the US and inviting the Confederacy in. Notice that they did not, and rushed to create a situation where victory for their side was highly likely.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the Oc looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be libale for murder should they take a life in following thos orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.AUS example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the Oc looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be libale for murder should they take a life in following thos orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.AUS example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the Oc looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be libale for murder should they take a life in following thos orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.AUS example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the Oc looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be libale for murder should they take a life in following thos orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.AUS example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
In rough terms, on May 23rd when the Virginians voted, there were somewhere above 18,000 "foreign" troops in the state, probably about 25,000 and perhaps more. There were also some number, probably above 20,000 and very possibly above 30,000 Virginia troops organizing. These were generally avid secessionists (not all; the 1st VA Volunteers (Union) were also organizing).
But what exactly were they voting on? Secession was already in existence de facto. The state government has already initiated hostilities with the US, seized all Federal facilities it can easily get, fired at US flag vessels, and sent Virginia forces and weapons into Maryland. The Confederate capital is already moving to Richmond. A alliance is already in effect.
So what would have happened if the state voted "NO" with a roar? Would all those "foreign" troops have immediately left peacefully (giving back the weaponsd virginia had already issued them)? Would Jefferson Davis and his government (
Tim
By forgien troops you mean troops without legal authority to be there, i take it?, VA nor legislature not have requested troops from other states to put down an insurection, as required by the laws on insurection lincoln said was in operation and working under, or aproved of their unlawfull entry into the state which was at that time the only way militia could enter another state, ie with its permision and request to do so, Even reugulars require prior invitation, as in Harpers Ferry insurection, invited in by the Gov, removed and re invited in again shortly after.
As to what they were voteing on, thats the popular referendum required by state law which followed the legisltures votes by delgates that allow it pass to the people for them to express their will, thats the full legal requirements for secesion to have legally jumped through all the hoops.
Then your post gets chopped, ive notived the board does a lot, so cant really guess what else you wanted my opinion on.
lets use what i can gather though, Seward diverts a ship sent on Lincolns orders to Sumpter to retake Fort Picknens, the Oc looks at the ship arriving and the orders its capt has, refuses to do so because the chain of command has not been followed, and therfore the orders are ilegal and he and any of his men would be libale for murder should they take a life in following thos orders. A Uk example is a magistrate readeds the riot act, following which the mil and civil authority can use whatever force it likes to subdue the riot, any officer acting prior to that is not covered by the provisions of the riot act and liable to prosecuction.AUS example is other states militia passing through Baltimore, the first man killed is a lawyer telling them they have no legal right to be there, shot down along with others when the troops after great restrainst used force to effect their unlawfuill passage, the result wa sthat the moves to prevent them spreaqd to official acts rather than mobs of private individuals.
If the popular vote had been no, the no secesion was in existance, but thats a highly unlikly posobility given the extent of secesionst fervor after lincoln made a great move to unite the North, whiich davis said fine, ill see that gambit as it will drive more states to secede because while they wont over our arguments, they will when you turn to coerce us.
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VA secession vote, 5/23/1861, troops at polling places 
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