Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
The Confederacy was so dominated by the slave economy, they could never adequately supply its army. The Confederacy was so fixed to a slave economy, it saw no need for use of federal funds for internal commercial improvement. Slavery was a right that superceded all others, other than the free rights of the non-slave.
The Confederacy could never build an economy to defend its states. It could either make iron sheathing for its small ironclad navy, or make rails for its railroads. It could not do both.
The Confederacy was unable to maintain its railroads; a necessity in modern war of the time. The Confederacy was unable to manufacture enough uniforms for its soldiers; enough shoes for their feet; enough horseshoes for the horses and mules; enough rails for its railroads; enough forage for its horses; enough horses for its cavalry; enough artillery ammunition for its batteries to practice; enough sound artillery ammunition; enough wagons; enough soldiers; enough leather harnesses and other leather supplies.
The Confederacy had enough resolve to defend slavery; the Confederacy never had the economic strength to adequately defend slavery.
The Confederacy had enough resolve to defend slavery; the Confederacy never had the economic strength to adequately defend slavery.
Unfortunately, Whitworth, those who wanted out of the Union at whatever cost had louder voices than the cooler heads who anticipated the terrible cost.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The Confederacy was so dominated by the slave economy, they could never adequately supply its army. The Confederacy was so fixed to a slave economy, it saw no need for use of federal funds for internal commercial improvement. Slavery was a right that superceded all others, other than the free rights of the non-slave. MUCH OF THE CONFEDERACY (MOST) WAS NOT TIED TO A SLAVE ECONOMY. THESE WERE SMALL LAND OWNERS OR SHARECROPPERS AT BEST. SLAVES WERE CONCENTRATED ON LARGE RICE OR COTTON PLANTATIONS. NOT THE GENERAL RULE.
The Confederacy could never build an economy to defend its states. It could either make iron sheathing for its small ironclad navy, or make rails for its railroads. It could not do both. THE MANUFACTURING PLANTS SIMPLY DID NOT EXIST, NOT THE RAW MATERIALS OR DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM REQUIRED. ONLY PERHAPS AUGUST AND SELMA HAD ANYTHING GOING AND THAT WAS JUST CANNONS AND GUN POWDER.
The Confederacy was unable to maintain its railroads; a necessity in modern war of the time. The Confederacy was unable to manufacture enough uniforms for its soldiers; enough shoes for their feet; enough horseshoes for the horses and mules; enough rails for its railroads; enough forage for its horses; enough horses for its cavalry; enough artillery ammunition for its batteries to practice; enough sound artillery ammunition; enough wagons; enough soldiers; enough leather harnesses and other leather supplies. THE RAILROADS SIMPLY HAD NOT BEEN COMPLETED FOR THE MOST PART. N.B. FORREST AND WHEELER SPENT A LOT OF GOOD MAN HOURS DIS-ASSEMBLING THOSE THAT HAD.
The Confederacy had enough resolve to defend slavery; the Confederacy never had the economic strength to adequately defend slavery.
AGREED. RESOLVE WAS AT A PREMIUM. THE PART THAT LACKED WAS MONEY AND MANPOWER. THE WAR WAS A DUMB MOVE ON THE CONFEDERACY'S PART.
I too agree with you fellows. But Larry, how was the Confederacy going to avoid war? There was going to be constant agitation with the upper slave states to join them, the Confederates considered all Federal property within their borders to belong to them, including those occupied by federal troops willing and able to keep said properties in Federal hands, and with a constant and increasing drain and threat of a drain of slaves to the North- the North now having no regard whatsoever as to returning fleeing slaves South.
And the hotheads wanted a war.
They believed two things- first that the North would not really fight, and those perspicacious enough (and these weren't rare) to understand that the North indeed would fight, believed that they could win. William Sherman saw the thing very clearly from the get go, few others did. It pretty much took fighting the war to gain true understanding of what Whitworth said- that the South didn't have the strength and resources to outlast the Union. And so the Grand Irony- by going to extremes to defend slavery, the slaveholders destroyed it... and themselves.
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
...and with a constant and increasing drain and threat of a drain of slaves to the North- the North now having no regard whatsoever as to returning fleeing slaves South.
A minor point of contention, Ed.
The exodus of slaves to the North was never a significant factor. Most of those who helped slaves escape made quite sure that they kept going. The numbers didn't reach fighting proportions, but they sure made good copy!
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Ole's point is, as usual, well made. Slaves just didn't leave the south in great numbers. EWC asked how the South could have avoided war. First off, the South as such didn't exist until Jeff Davis said it did. The Confederacy had no history and not much organization as a state. As for Federal occupation, that was a bit of hogwash, considering these were US soldiers, many of them from southern states, and all representing and attempting to protect the interests of the federal government. (May my CSA ancestors turn their heads from reading this?) Simple legislative action could have avoided much of the bloodshed. That would have required brains and resolve, probably too much to expect from mere mortals, not to mention politicians. Once the fester broke, it was a mess. Too too many brave souls were drug into the bloody mire with no vote in the matter. This was civil war, not a pretty sight.
... As for Federal occupation, that was a bit of hogwash, considering these were US soldiers, many of them from southern states, and all representing and attempting to protect the interests of the federal government. (May my CSA ancestors turn their heads from reading this?) ...
One of the things I have never understood is why anyone pays attention to this "federal occupation" stuff.
The US Army at the start of 1861 was roughly 16,000 strong. About 14,000 of those were West of the Mississippi, spread all the way to the Pacific Ocean. Some 2200 were in Texas pursuing and defending against Indians and Mexican bandits -- and the Texans complained the US wasn't doing enough there.
This leaves about 2000 men to "occupy" all the states East of the Mississippi, North and South. Many posts were "occupied" by 1 or 2 men, such as a "fortkeeper" with his wife to look after the place. The total garrison of all the forts in Charleston was about 70 officers and men.
When threatened by combinations of citizens and militia in the period December 1860 up to Ft. Sumter was attacked, these men repeatedly refused to fire on civilians while under great provocation, acting with great restraint in some cases.
In answering Larry's post, I was basically wondering how the Confederates could have avoided war with the North. Ole and Larry mention that the loss of slaves to the North was minimal and I take it insignificant in the larger scheme of things. Before secession, I would agree with that. However, what I was referring to was the effect of this loss and furthermore the threat of this loss would be a major irritant between North and South if the war did not start as it actually did. Certainly in these conditions, the abolitionists were not going to sit on their hands and wonder, they were going to actively promote the movement of slaves out of the Confederacy- such slaves would no longer be subject to the Fugitive Slave Laws hence not returned to their masters in the seceded states. General Butler's 'Contraband' argument to the fore. This would have been a serious bone of contention between the sides.
As to avoiding bloodshed and the requirement, in Larry's words, of 'brains and resolve', unfortunately little of that seemed to be immediately at hand. Things had gotten past the logic and adaptability phase and emotion seemed to be ruling the roost. If the country could have gotten past this point, had there been a period of calm after the Confederacy had formed and Lincoln had been inaugurated (longer than the month till the Ft Sumter business), say six months, then possibly cooler heads and wits my have prevailed, not likely given that the country had taken sixty what years to arrive at this 'mess' (another cogent term of Larry's). But at this point they were definitely looking over the precipice, where the country hadn't actually reached before. And could be the scare might not sense into an addled brain or two? But who was going to allow this? Certainly not the hotheads who wanted to provoke a fight to cause more states to leave the Union, or those who wished to smite the slaveholders now that they have 'gone and done it.' The issue of slaves leaving for the North and the sceptre of abolitionists whisking slaves away or promoting servile rebellion would simply be too big an issue not to help promote a shooting war.
As to the mention of 'Federal occupation', I am afraid I am not following that line of thought at all. My mention of Federal troops defending Federal installations held in the Confederacy meant the garrisons of Ft Sumter, Ft Pickens, and Fts Taylor & Jefferson in the Florida keys. These troops were not going anywhere and to take possession the Confederates were going to have to either convince them to surrender, the Federal government to voluntarily relinquish the forts, or to force them out by means of arms.
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
As to the mention of 'Federal occupation', I am afraid I am not following that line of thought at all. My mention of Federal troops defending Federal installations held in the Confederacy meant the garrisons of Ft Sumter, Ft Pickens, and Fts Taylor & Jefferson in the Florida keys.
That was not directed at you, Ed. Some die-hards, not necessarily on this forum, believe that the presence of one uniformed Yank anywhere inside of secessionist borders was Federal "occupation." It also is used when discussing reconstruction.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Thanks, Ole, for the clarification- just couldn't figure out where in the conversation that fit. It's late, and I should be in bed.....so off I go....
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
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Slavery destroyed the Confederacy 
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