Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Mosby's youth calls into question his ability to decide what the war was about?
...Youthful or not, at the pointed tip of the spear, you know what you are fighting for and you know the reason why.
Unionblue
You mean like these guys on the tip of the spear?
"How trifling were the wrongs of complained of by our Revolutionary forefathers, compared with ours! If the mere imposition of a tax could arise such a tumult what should be the result of the terrible system of oppression instituted by the Yankees?" - A captain in the 5th Alabama on Washington's birthday 1862
"...[George Washington] set us an example in bursting the bonds of tyranny." -- Kentucky soldier on 4th of July 1862
... we are fighting for "the same principles which fired the hearts of our ancestors in the revolutionary struggle..." -- Alabama corporal after being captured at Gettysburg
"Times may grow a great deal worse than they now are, and still we can stand it -- And even then not go through what our Grandparents went through, when they were struggling for the same thing that we are now fighting for." -- wealthy South Carolina planter / soldier; early 1862
"...instead of indulging in feelings of despondency let us compare our situation and cause to those of our illustrious ancestors who achieved the liberties we have ever enjoyed and for which we are now contending." -- poor North Carolina farmer's son / solder; early 1862
"I am engaged in the glorious cause of of liberty and justice..." -- diary of a corporal in the 9th Alabama on his 20th birthday in 1862
"...my whole heart is in the cause of the Confederacy, because I believe that the perpetuity of Republican principles on the Continent depends upon our success." --- Lt. Colonel of the 10th Tennessee; May 1862
The war is a "struggle between Liberty on one side, and Tyranny on the other..." and I have decided to "espouse the holy cause of Southern freedom..." -- private of the 44th VA to his Unionist father on why he was fighting for the South
If I am killed, it would be while "fighting gloriously for the undying principles of Constitutional libery and self government." -- from the diary of a Confederate in the 3rd Missouri
Mosby?? What was Mosby's role in the question? He was a young man of about 27 years old with little experience before the war.
In 1861, Mosby was 28. He was born in 1833 and entered the University of Virginia in 1849, about age 16. Shortly afterwards, he shot George R. Murphy, a medical student, was fined 500 dollars and was sentenced to 12 months in prison. He passed his time in jail studying law, was pardoned in 1853, studied in the office of William J. Robertson, and passed the bar. He set up his own law practce, then met and married Pauline Clarke in Nashville (12/30/1857).
So what you are looking at is a young man who'd seen tough times, had passed the bar and run his own business, settled down, and become a married man. Also born in 1833: J. E. B. Stuart. Born in 1832: John B. Gordon. The age of 28 wasn't all that young in that time.
I would be very sure you can find such phrases. What is it you think they meant when they used terms like "liberty"?
Might it be what a South Carolina newspaper said in 1860, that the slave system was "of all others the best adapted to the freedom and equality of the whites", so therefore the election of Lincoln (or any Republican) was a threat to liberty?
Perhaps they saw things as John C. Calhoun did in 1848: "With us the two great divisions of society are not the rich and the poor., but white and black;and all the former, the poor as well as the rich, belong to the upper class and are treated as equals." If so, do you think they saw their status threatened, and therefore used high-sounding phrases to cloak such an ignoble sentiment?
Or do you think they felt, as was said at the time, that "If slaves are freed, whites will become menials. We will lose every right and every liberty that belongs to the name of freedmen!"
Do you think they were reacting to statements like Baptist minister James Furman's: "If you are tame enough to submit, Abolition preachers will be at hand to consumate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands." Do you see them as fighting against that propaganda?
Do you think their vision of "freedom" was equal to this common slogan of the Fire-eaters of the day: "Freedom is not possible without slavery!" Is that what they were fighting for?
When they made all these comments about George Washington and others, do you think they realized that as President, Washington had signed into law the first act prohibiting law in the Federal territories? That Washington had written to Lafayette, both before and after that act, saying that he was sure had done the right thing in signing it? If so, how do you think they squared Washington's opinion with their insistence that slavery be extended? Perhaps they were simply ill-informed and, therefore, would have changed their minds if exposed to the truth?
Words like "liberty" and "freedom" and "rights" are high-sounding and have been used and misused by many through the ages. The key to understanding what these people meant would be dependent upon what the words meant to them. If when it is all boiled down what they meant by the high-sounding phrases was "we get to live in a slave society", then the war really was about slavery.
In other words, as long as you side with the "correct" guys (defined as Shane's side), then you are OK. If you dare side with the other guys, then its base betrayal.
Once again, might makes right, and the moral high ground is not important.
Hal
Hal... as usual you have ignored my previous posts; don't worry yourself about it as you've shown that tendency in the past and I have learned to expect it. Look to what I have said of the average CS soldier and treason then look to what I have said about politicians & officers who broke their oath. Then look up that oath, read it and ask someone who has given a similar oath if such an oath has any merit or means anything to them.
I apparently give more weight to an oath and my word of honor than others. I was merely an enlisted man and I respect the oath I took. If an enlisted man can honor his oath... why can't an officer or politician and why on earth should they not be held to at least the same standards as that enlisted men? If anything they should be held to higher standards.
I'm not suprised you hold Mosby's opinion in such contempt... after all he disagreed w/ the Lost Cause. I would think his view to be at least as valid as Gordon... or Early for that matter never have figured out why it is less so. IMHO he gave as good service to the CS as either one of them... was every bit as honorable and courageous. Was his opinion somehow less because his happens to disagree w/ you? More is the pity.
Incidently, that you can see your ancestors who fought for their country as treasonous... I'm not suprised. They supported their nation against all enemies foreign and domestic they did what they felt was correct. They chose what they felt to be the right side. Was that the right thing to do? That decision was made by God long before you or I was born. That you despise your ancestors is your problem and your tragedy.
I respect any man of any time that is/was willing to stand up behind his beliefs... I may not agree w/ those beliefs but I hold them in a whole lot more respect than those who start the ball then opt out. I tend to concur w/ the contempt the average soldier of the time felt for the politicians that started the whole shindig and then were conspicuosly absent on the sharp end (on both ends of the scrap).
I hold little respect for liars and those who renig on their word...
Whats that saying? The more somone speaks of their honor... the faster you should counting your spoons? I asked for a definition of "Southern Honor" I received two valid ones from two men I think have their heads squarely upon their shoulders. Southern Honor better than Northern? Don't know as I see much difference between the two nor do I see much credabilty in anyone who claims one side more honorable than the other...
As usual I bid you a good day.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
When did Mosby make these remarks?Were these remarks recorded during the war or later on.Mosby was very unpopular in the South after the war for reportedly befriending and being in cahoots with carpetbaggers and Republicans in business.Does this make his opinion wrong?Well if this was indeed after the war it certainly isn't hard to think those circumstances didn't affect his stated opinion.Regardless the focus of one man's words as proof of a mindset or cause is a very silly case.What of Northern soldiers who have their words recorded as having waged war on a poeple who have done no wrong to them etch...Would my friendds from the dark side change their opinion based on a individual's words?Surely not.You are also the same poeple who discredit reports of Sherman's atrocities and choose to ignore his words which make his intentions clear.Now it's starting to look like many of you just accept as evidence anything that agrees with your preconceived notions.Come on yall are better and smarter than that.
__________________ "The sword is mighty, but principles laugh at swords. Overwhelming force may crush truth to earth but, crushed or not the truth is still the truth." Regards, Ashley
Then please explain why men in the service of the South made such statements.
I will make it easy and just use one example. Explain it to me and I will give you serious attention.
Why did Robert E. Lee say secession was nothing but rebellion?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I would be very sure you can find such phrases. What is it you think they meant when they used terms like "liberty"?
...Do you think their vision of "freedom" was equal to this common slogan of the Fire-eaters of the day: "Freedom is not possible without slavery!" Is that what they were fighting for?
When they made all these comments about George Washington and others, do you think they realized that as President, Washington had signed into law the first act prohibiting law in the Federal territories? That Washington had written to Lafayette, both before and after that act, saying that he was sure had done the right thing in signing it? If so, how do you think they squared Washington's opinion with their insistence that slavery be extended? Perhaps they were simply ill-informed and, therefore, would have changed their minds if exposed to the truth?
Your condescending "truth" resembles anything but, I am sorry to say.
Quote:
Words like "liberty" and "freedom" and "rights" are high-sounding and have been used and misused by many through the ages. The key to understanding what these people meant would be dependent upon what the words meant to them. If when it is all boiled down what they meant by the high-sounding phrases was "we get to live in a slave society", then the war really was about slavery.
Regards,
Tim
Of course. Wicked Southern men are not allowed to speak for themselves, but rather require enlightened and all-knowing force-unionists to correct them and explain what it is they REALLY meant when they "misuse" such "high- sounding" words. Because when they "misuse" such high-sounding terms it might obscure and tarnish the pure motives of the god-Yankees' war against self-government.
But, of course, when one of them says what YOU want them to say, then you take that all back. Because then, their words are to be held up as gospel -- and to be displayed as proof of the Yankee glory hallelujah trampling of wicked Southern grapes of wrath.
I'm not suprised you hold Mosby's opinion in such contempt... .
As you know, I hold Mosby's opinion in the highest regard.
However, I hold the tendency to hold up his opinion as the exclusive truth, while discarding the opinion of others as coniving lies, in great contempt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trice I would be very sure you can find such phrases. What is it you think they meant when they used terms like "liberty"?
...Do you think their vision of "freedom" was equal to this common slogan of the Fire-eaters of the day: "Freedom is not possible without slavery!" Is that what they were fighting for?
When they made all these comments about George Washington and others, do you think they realized that as President, Washington had signed into law the first act prohibiting law in the Federal territories? That Washington had written to Lafayette, both before and after that act, saying that he was sure had done the right thing in signing it? If so, how do you think they squared Washington's opinion with their insistence that slavery be extended? Perhaps they were simply ill-informed and, therefore, would have changed their minds if exposed to the truth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawglips
Your condescending "truth" resembles anything but, I am sorry to say.
Sigh. As per usual, you prefer to make personal remarks instead of answering questions or addressing the facts. The "truth" referred to here is what George Washington actually *DID* and what he told his good friend Lafayette about it both before and after the act was signed. We can easily show the documentation to support that. The signing of the law, if not Washington's private communication, was surely known at the time. It is quite different than what these people seemed to have thought. Do you think they would avoid the facts the way you do? What makes you think they were that afraid? Brave men can usually face up to being wrong, and adjust their thought accordingly.
If the slogan "Freedom is not possible without slavery!" was common in the South of the secessionists -- and we know that it was, and can document widespread usage of it in Fire-Eater and secessionist speeches and literature -- what makes you think the people writing letters didn't believe it? If men like John C. Calhoun and James Hammond (despicable though he is) espoused it -- both well-known SC political leaders, widely quoted, known nationally -- why would you think some or all of the people you are quoting didn't agree with them and include this in their personal meaning of "freedom"?
Again, as usual, you find it insulting when someone provides quotes from Southern leaders of that day you disagree with; I think that is merely pretense. You do not wish to see these men completely as they were in those days, but that is not surprising. Neither did they, once they had fought their war and lost.
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