Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Wow. That's a pretty strong statement there Battalion. I can't wait til you post the sources to support that one. Do you really believe that or are you just trying to stir things up a bit? If you do believe it please post your support sources. Thanks.
Terry
Starter set for you-
John Brown
Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
Theodore Parker
Franklin Sanborn
Gerrit Smith
George Luther Stearns
John Brown Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe Thomas Wentworth Higginson Theodore Parker Franklin Sanborn Gerrit Smith George Luther Stearns
OK. That's John Brown (captured by Federal troops, turned over to state authorities, executed) and the "Secret Six" who supported him. Trivia answered.
Now what is it you mean by this? It seems to me you were asked to support your earlier statement, and have avoided the opportunity to do so. Why not just say what you mean clearly?
More trivia, since you seem to like things that have a murky connection to the topic under discussion: my Dad's old boss, Sidney Emsig, used to own a farm up in New York that John Brown had lived on, and the family might still own it after Sidney's death. I don't think old Sidney was an abolitionist, though he might have been if he lived then and thought about it. He had a very definite sense of honor and followed his beliefs rigorously.
Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-
...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion Starter set for you-
John Brown Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe Thomas Wentworth Higginson Theodore Parker Franklin Sanborn Gerrit Smith George Luther Stearns
Which of those guys came out in favor of the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-"? And which document(s) or book(s) are you using as your source(s) for that claim? (chapter and page numbers please, if you will.)
Also, please include the date(s) when any of those mentioned above, or anybody at all, actually indicated that they would like to see the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-" Thanks.
TW
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
Which of those guys came out in favor of the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-"? And which document(s) or book(s) are you using as your source(s) for that claim? (chapter and page numbers please, if you will.)
Also, please include the date(s) when any of those mentioned above, or anybody at all, actually indicated that they would like to see the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-" Thanks.
TW
Please tell us what slave insurrection did not result in...
...the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children?
~~~
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
"...wrote to Richard Watson Gilder, the editor of The Century Magazine. Declaring his remorse only for not having urged the deployment of what he called More Practical Terror in the days prior to the raid on Harper's Ferry, he summarized the botched insurrection: We did what we did. In the end, we were trying to do right. And I believe, in the greatest measure, that we did do right."
Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, the Unabomber, etc., would say/have said the same.
"In retrospect, I think the bombing of a few fine southern buildings, or a few famous southern men, with notes crediting the blasts to some choice northern abolitionist groups, would have done the job. Such action would have brought disunion quickly, and without risk to any from our side. The Russian revolutionists, who were so efficient in making the tyrant Tsar Alexander II explode, have much to teach us about practical terror...."
...
"...The elegant emphatic Higginson pulled no punches, making it clear...that he and his friends had been entirely aware of Brown's intent to incite a slave rebellion in Virginia" http://www.bungalowshop.com/sanborn/chapter25.html
You nibble around the edges, but never provide a main course.
And to top it off, you run up to the 20th & 21st centuries to provide what?
Provide the sources which prove a call for the murder of women and children by Northern leaders, people, etc.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
...How are their own words (whether it's said in 1860 or 1900) not proof of it?
Good point... here.
"Davis is venal and corrupt, and the Confederate Congress is no better." Thomas J. Withers
"Jefferson Davis is not only a dishonest man, but a liar." Barnwell Rhett
"I have been up to see the Congress and they do not seem to be able to do anything except to eat peanuts and chew tobacco, while my army is starving." Robert E. Lee
"I am one of those dull creatures that cannot see the good of secession." Robert E. Lee
Colonel Robert E. Lee met with Francis Blair Sr. in his home on Pennsylvania Avenue and told him, "I come to you on the part of President Lincoln to ask whether any inducement that he can offer will prevail on you to take command of the Union army?"
Lee responded "Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four million of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"
"The South went to war on account of slavery...South Carolina went to war as she said in her secession proclamation, because slavery would not be secure under Lincoln...don't you think South Carolina ought to know why it went to war?" John Singleton Mosby
The words of the men of time are quite clear... proof if you will.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
"The President is nothing more than a well-meaning baboon…I went to the White House directly after tea where I found “the original Gorilla” about as intelligent as ever. What a specimen to be at the head of our affairs now!"
General George McClellan on Abraham Lincoln
~~~
"Where did the long-armed baboon come from?"
"A long, lank creature from Illinois, wearing a dirty linen duster for a coat and the back of which perspiration had splotched wide stains that resembled a map of the continent."
Edwin M. Stanton description of Abraham Lincoln, 1854
"The President is nothing more than a well-meaning baboon…I went to the White House directly after tea where I found “the original Gorilla” about as intelligent as ever. What a specimen to be at the head of our affairs now!"
General George McClellan on Abraham Lincoln
OK, so George McClellan did not like Abraham Lincoln. Evidence would show that McClellan had a bad thing to say about *anyone* who had authority over him. It didn't matter whether it was Lincoln, Winfield Scott, or anyone else. In the case of Lincoln it may have been even worse, since Lincoln had once been a lawyer hired to represent the RR McClellan was running in the 1850s (along with Stanton, IIRR).
So what, exactly, is your intended point in presenting this quote from McClellan? Are you trying to show us that General McClellan was an arrogant, foolish man who insulted his superiors and courted dismissal for conduct unbecoming to an officer in the US Army, and possible charges of insubordination?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
"Where did the long-armed baboon come from?"
"A long, lank creature from Illinois, wearing a dirty linen duster for a coat and the back of which perspiration had splotched wide stains that resembled a map of the continent."
Edwin M. Stanton description of Abraham Lincoln, 1854
Hmm. One lawyer with political ambition disparaging another, in an age where personal insult and mudslinging was a common form of campaigning. Not too surprising. Yet we can also note that this very man Stanton would be brought into Lincoln's cabinet, serve faithfully, and become in the end one of Lincoln's most ardent supporters.
Again, what is your point in bringing this into the debate on secession here? Do you actually mean to say or imply something? If so, please clearly specify what you mean.
Battalion, your attempts to bolster your argument brings to mind a few phrases which I'll share with you: "thin ice"....."on the ropes"..."grasping at straws"..."way out in left field" (attributed originally to the one and only Babe Ruth). Nice try, though. I do look forward to your posts, if not for accuracy and truth, at least for the entertainment value. Keep 'em comin'!
TW
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
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