Did the north have the moral ground and 1860

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

IMHO Treason is the basest form of betrayal. However; in fairness treason is merely a matter of dates and winners and losers.

The only real credence I can give the Revolutionaries of 1776 is that they were in a situation where there were two sets of laws: one for the English and one for the Americans and there was certainly a degree of screwing over the colonists going on. Was it a valid /legit reason for a revolution? History has made that decision fo me.

Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860.

"Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860"

~~~

Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
...in Britain in 1776.............................................. .......No

[Battalion]

I doubt if Southerners regarded themselves as "treasonous."

Treason against who?-

Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman?

~~~

Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...

...is "loyal?"

Loyal to what?

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

I doubt if Southerners regarded themselves as "treasonous."

Treason against who?- Read what Joe Johnston had to say on the subject. You've put up a pure straw man argument; treason was not against a who; but a what. It was treason against the United States of America and everything it stood for. Incidently the avaerage CS soldier wasn't commiting treason IMHO, the officers & politicains who forsaked their oathes are another matter altogether. When an oath is held only so long as it is convenient... so much for honor and integrity.

Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman? How do you figure these men could have treason commited against them? Another straw man argument... and a pretty weak one at that.
~~~

Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...

...is "loyal?" More emotionaly charged rhetoric w/ little bassis in anything especially fact.

Loyal to what?

Were the men of the 1st AL Cav (US), 1st SC US & other units raised from states in Rebellion treasonous or patriotic... or any less courageous than their brethern? Never mind I already know your answer.

[johan_steele]

Originally Posted by Battalion

"Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860"

~~~

Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
...in Britain in 1776.............................................. .......No

Usual rhetoric... what particular massively lethal slave rebellion would you be talking about? Whoops there wasn't one. John Browns attempt at one was put down by the US military... Wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of good Lost Cause rhetoric would we?

[johan_steele]

Of coarse there are always the words of the men at the time...

"Davis is venal and corrupt, and the Confederate Congress is no better." Thomas J. Withers Not my words... though I agree w/ them.
____
"Jefferson Davis is not only a dishonest man, but a liar." Barnwell Rhett See above.___

"I have been up to see the Congress and they do not seem to be able to do anything except to eat peanuts and chew tobacco, while my army is starving." Robert E. Lee Appears as though the CS Congress was little more effective than the US...___

"I am one of those dull creatures that cannot see the good of secession." Robert E. Lee Who are we to argue w/ the great Lee; incidently I think he was onto something.
____

Colonel Robert E. Lee met with Francis Blair Sr. in his home on Pennsylvania Avenue and told him, "I come to you on the part of President Lincoln to ask whether any inducement that he can offer will prevail on you to take command of the Union army?"

Lee responded "Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four million of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?" Anarchy... Lee apparently believed that. I agree.___

"The South went to war on account of slavery...South Carolina went to war as she said in her secession proclamation, because slavery would not be secure under Lincoln...don't you think South Carolina ought to know why it went to war?" John Singleton Mosby I have a distinct impression that Mosby might have known what he was talking about. THe words of the men of time are quite clear.

[unionblue]

Battalion,

How many in the North advocated slave insurrection and the death of women and children? What administration actively pursued such goals? What percentage of the Northern population in 1860 supported the idea of a violent slave insurrection?

Saying it don't make it so. Show us.

Unionblue

[Battalion]

Originally Posted by johan_steele

It was treason against the United States of America and everything it stood for.

"Everything it stood for"

Including the Constitution?

...which Lincoln and others violated at every turn.

Originally Posted by js

Battalion- "Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman?

How do you figure these men could have treason commited against them? Another straw man argument... and a pretty weak one at that.

They are part of the "glorious" Union.

Originally Posted by js

Battalion- "Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...
...is "loyal?"

More emotionaly charged rhetoric w/ little bassis in anything especially fact.

"Emotionally charged"?????........

No. There's far more fact than emotion.

[johan_steele]

Actually Battalion, it is nothing but emotion and straw man arguments w/ a few facts sprinkled in for flavor. Your "So it is said" charges to counter the words of the time and other instances are rather telling. It is fascinating to me how a thread labeled "Did the North have the Moral high ground in 1860" Can so easily be turned into ad hominum attacks against Lincoln... when he hadn't yet taken office in 1860 and his actions as president cannot be taken into account if the subject is 1860.

Once again what massive slave Rebellion (fiction fueled rhetoric) was supported by the evil "north" trying to murder innocent southerners? John Browns attempt at one was put down by the US Military... which should have made it quite obvious that the US govt was likely to put down such attempts at Rebellion. If thta wasn't enough anyone who had a clue what had happened w/ the Mormons just a few years prior to that should have known how a Rebellion would be dealt w/... I wonder why no Southern secessionists threatened to secede over that? Wouldn't be because slavery wasn't a question could it?

While you were busy attacking me again Neil asked you pretty much the same question... might be more convincing for your argument if you weren't already dodging it.

While you are chewing on that what do you say of what the men I quoted, some of them justifiably thought of as heroes, had to say on Secession?

[ole]

Stings like a butterfly; drones like a bee.
Ole

[william42]

Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes

Wow. That's a pretty strong statement there Battalion. I can't wait til you post the sources to support that one. Do you really believe that or are you just trying to stir things up a bit? If you do believe it please post your support sources. Thanks.

Terry