Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
The other day I was having a conversation with my daughter and mentioned that our SCV Camp was having its monthly meeting. She does not understand in her words “why grown men belong to such a brotherhood”. I first told her that we don’t use alters nor do we have animal or human sacrifices to appease the Gods.
She was joking when she said it, buy joking aside.
It got me to thinking, the truth and shame of this type of mine frame is that there are lots of people who truly have this concept of ours and other veteran organizations and about America as a whole. I love my daughter very much and in time I hope to bring her the knowledge of what the Sons of Confederate Veterans or any veteran group stand for and for the meaning of history and how it is to be accurately portrayed.
People think like this because there is a vast lack of understanding and a failure of us as parents, history buffs and even some of our school systems to teach us and our children the truth. In some cases they simply use the revisionist version history. It is these foundations or should I say lack of, which our children grow up with. With these misunderstanding’s of American history, or for that fact, world history, they venture into a world saturated with TV, radio and other medias which spout “Yellow Journalism” that is the un –truth or only truth as they see it. We as parents, members of the SCV and Americans have a momentous task before us. It’s more than just keeping the history and truth about the Confederate Veteran and our relative’s alive.
The lack of knowledge such as this not only takes away from your Confederate heritage but more importantly, it undermines the “Constitution of the United States” and tears away from the “Bill of Rights”. Just look at the first four amendments. I mean, if you just read them, their pretty simple and are not hard to understand. Then comes the liberal elite and the so called highly educated. You know, those folks who know what’s best for us dumb hicks. They have to intrepid and re-intrepid those precious documents. Let’s face it, our forefathers wrote them so that the simple farmer, blacksmith, lumberjack, trader, everyday man or yes, even us dumb hicks could understand them. The signers of the Declaration of Independence knew what they were writing. All of our cherished and beloved articles and documents by which this nation was conceived, were written so that any person with “common sense” (no book pun intended) could understand them
This United States did many things to bring us back together after the Civil War. In many cases during the Spanish-American and Philippine Wars, former Confederate offices were out in command of United States Army units. Today some try to tear us apart by attacking out cherished symbols and flags. They want us to be ashamed of our heritage and not proud as we should be.
People who express their ignorance in their unfounded opinions, whether it be about the Confederate solder, the Confederate Flag (s) or any portion of American history are the reason we are becoming such a diverse society. We have allowed this politically correct way of thinking and culture to separate and segregate us from each other. We were always a “melting pot”. You should be proud of your heritage and always remember, no matter you nationality, your are an American first and foremost. It’s time we get back to the basics that this country was founded on.
Deo Vindice,
John R. Tucker Sr. Judge Advocate Buffalo Guards Camp-1975 Buffalo, New York
That was very well said, John. Those of us with roots in the Confederacy get awfully sick and tired of hearing the terms, traitor and slaveowner (most of our ancestors weren't). Reading and understanding history is important, but it's important to listen to, not only what the political leaders of the day said, but read what the average citizen of the South said and what he/she thought.
The political leaders were wrapped up in the attack on slavery, not simply because of a fear of losing slavery, but it was an attack on our respective state's sovereignty. They felt if the Constitution couldn't protect us from these attacks we had no choice but to seperate.
But, what about the people, the average citizen, that made up the whole of the South, what did they think? What were their reasons for supporting secession with such zeal? Most of them were not slave owners. So what made them kiss their wife and children goodbye and march off knowing they may never see their family again, and that was the case for so many of them, including my gr-gr-grandfather, Lt. Richard Somerville Lyle, a farmer and a school teacher, having never owned a slave.
That cold, impersonal slave owner that the North held up for an example of slavery in the South made up a negligible percentage of slave owners. They held up the exception to prove the rule. Those men (and women, including black slaveowners) that held dozens of slaves were rare. The majority of slave owners had cordial, if not affectionate, relationships with slaves. People that have never lived in close proximity with blacks, as Southerners have, can't begin to understand the relationships and bonds that were formed and continued into the twentieth century. It always annoys me that after mentioning these facts I must add the disclaimer that I'm not defending slavery and slavery was wrong...as if anyone today would condone slavery. But, for anyone that is really interested in the truth they should read the journals and diaries of the Southern people, slaveowners and non-slaveowners, alike.
You are right in that we are all Americans now. It's also true the WBTS left scars that have endured for more than 140 years, but for the most part that is because of a lack of understanding, tolerance, and sometimes even malice. We were a conquered people, but never was our pride or spirit crushed. That was (and still is) just too much for some folks to tolerate. As a carptebagger in the South once commented, "Why, these folks act like they won the war."
Taking down our flags, removing the monuments to our heroes, renaming the schools and streets, publishing nasty articles and editorials....all of this is part of an on-going effort to crush the spirit and pride that remains in the South.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
There is a concerted effort to negate anything Confederate, and this is often instigated with "malice," IMO. As Rose stated, it is our intense pride in our confederate ancestors which is the prime target of the revisionist.
Who are they who are taking down these symbols? Are you claiming there is a federal government action doing this, or is it happening at the state level by state action?
Who are they who are taking down these symbols? Are you claiming there is a federal government action doing this, or is it happening at the state level by state action?
Cedarstripper
In Alabama, its being done at the city level. Southern (small) municipalities possessive of an historical WBTS past containing Confederate symbols, ie. momuments, have had them removed. An old CSA monument is offensive, they state.
(An Addition per edit):
County school boards in Alabama have strictly prohibited students from wearing garments with the quote, "rebel flag" upon them. I assume in their ignorance they intend to mean the Confederate battleflag, CBF? Other cultural emblems, phrases and etc. specified as forbidden via official school codebooks, are tolerated.
Those of us with roots in the Confederacy get awfully sick and tired of hearing the terms, traitor and slaveowner
The truth hurts.
Quote:
The political leaders were wrapped up in the attack on slavery, not simply because of a fear of losing slavery, but it was an attack on our respective state's sovereignty.
The states are not sovereign. They are answerable to the laws of the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land.
Quote:
Those men (and women, including black slaveowners) that held dozens of slaves were rare.
They were rare but were strong enough to break apart the country and get thousands of ordinary southerners to fight their war for slavery?
They were not as rare as you would like to think.
Quote:
The majority of slave owners had cordial, if not affectionate, relationships with slaves.
Ask the field hands if they had a cordial relationship with their masters. I'm sure they were more than happy to get whipped and tortured.
Quote:
People that have never lived in close proximity with blacks, as Southerners have, can't begin to understand the relationships and bonds that were formed and continued into the twentieth century.
That is an asinine statement to claim that only southerners can understand those of African descent. That sounds like that the same old tired argument from the days of slavery and segregation that white southerners know what's best for blacks.
"She [Mrs. Spencer] had high praise for the blacks: 'I do not know a race more studiously misrepresented than they have been...They behaved well during the war: if they had not, it could not have lasted eighteen months.' The high-minded Mrs. Spencer quite unconsciously expressed the prevailing bias that the most laudable blacks were those who knew their place and were content to keep it." From Sherman's March
Quote:
It always annoys me that after mentioning these facts I must add the disclaimer that I'm not defending slavery
Well you make the life of a slave sound all warm and fuzzy.
The slaves were happy picking cotton because they sang songs all day long while their masters drank mint juleps on the veranda.
__________________
Last edited by Admiral_Porter; 01-31-2006 at 06:32 PM.
History should be a mirror, a smooth, reflective surface, that allows all of historical fact, both the good and the bad, to stare back at us, so we can examine it in detail, make adjustments to our present so that we will not repeat the mistakes of the past.
The many attempts to ignore or glorify that period in history that we call the Civil War, to purposefully leave out portions of that history that we find uncomfortable or do not fit in with our present-day agenda, is a deliberate attempt to smash that mirror. Or at least distort it so it does not cast a true reflection of past events, dooming our children and grandchildren to repeat our mistakes.
It matters that you and others want to try and honor the memory of your ancestors and present their case to the present. You feel that you are duty-bound to do so. That is good, as history is a beggar in today's world, competing with video games, TV series and the computer generation. But ignoring or downplaying parts of history that you and others find personally objectionable is the same type of disservice these modern-day distractions do to our young.
Do not distort history into a kind of fun-house mirror, where one section reflects the honor and bravery of the typical Confederate soldier who owned no slaves and fought for his home, his family and his land, and totally ignore by that same distortion, the impact of slavery that brought on the war.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
No, Admiral, the truth is fine. It's the lies and hatred that hurts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
The states are not sovereign. They are answerable to the laws of the Constitution which is the supreme law of the land.
That isn't the problem. The problem is the people interpreting the Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
They were rare but were strong enough to break apart the country and get thousands of ordinary southerners to fight their war for slavery?
They were not as rare as you would like to think.
It is estimated that they represented about 3% of the Southern population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
Ask the field hands if they had a cordial relationship with their masters. I'm sure they were more than happy to get whipped and tortured.
Ah, so you too, hold up the exception as the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
That is an asinine statement to claim that only southerners can understand those of African descent. That sounds like that the same old tired argument from the days of slavery and segregation that white southerners know what's best for blacks.
I agree that would be an asinine statement, if that is what I had said. I did not say only Southerners understood African Americans. I said that those who have never lived in close proximity with blacks do not understand the relationships and bonds that formed between the races in the South.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
She [Mrs. Spencer] had high praise for the blacks: 'I do not know a race more studiously misrepresented than they have been...They behaved well during the war: if they had not, it could not have lasted eighteen months.' The high-minded Mrs. Spencer quite unconsciously expressed the prevailing bias that the most laudable blacks were those who knew their place and were content to keep it." From Sherman's March
It's more likely that Mrs. Spencer very conciously praised the blacks for the excellent job they did of keeping the Southern homefront going while the men were gone to war, in spite of the fact they didn't have to. They could have easily overpowered the women, yet for the most part, they behaved like the decent and civil people they were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
Well you make the life of a slave sound all warm and fuzzy.
If I did it was unintentional. Life wasn't warm and fuzzy in the South for anyone in the nineteenth century. It was hard work for everyone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter
The slaves were happy picking cotton because they sang songs all day long while their masters drank mint juleps on the veranda.
That is so ludicrous that I don't really know how to respond to it so I'll just let it pass.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
I don't know if it is a state-wide problem or a county problem in each of the states but this is an example here in Alabama. I don't see this particularly as a federal problem. Lord, they have enough problems!
We have been fighting for over THREE years to open our new Alabama Confederate Memorial Park in honor of the "Confederate soldiers" who fought. The hold up has been the script. The script had been approved in the 60's by all factions, black and white but it stayed tied up because we didn't have the money to "do the Museum justice". These people who wrote and approved it were historians, legislators, etc. from all over the state, again, but black and white.
When we raised the money we had some real Confederate haters who insisted that the script should be changed to include those who'd fought for the Union in Alabama. Naturally this was unacceptable as well it should be. Let them build their own Memorial Park, with the money they raise.
We will continue to fight legal battles on every front because of one person in the legislature who's vowed to wipe out the Confederacy and everything about it, including the Confederate Battle flag. He's becoming a policital liability, in my opinion. We got the historical commisionner fired because he held up funds by putting up scaffolding around the Confederate monuments on the Capitol grounds which were in progress using our funds that had been set aside for specific purposes. (They cost over 200 bucks a day.) He gloated publicly about looting the fund. He's gone now but watch out for him to appear again in any Southern state.
Here's something of the battle and its rewards: This just in:
My Friends,
We have a victory with our Script at Confederate Memorial Park. I
just got home from Montgomery where AHC held meetings from 9 A.M. until. . .
. . . . they were still in the Quarterly meeting when I left at 3:15 P.M. It
is a long way from the Capitol to Leroy, Al. I am exhausted, but contented.
I don't think I gave you progress reports on the Confederate
Memorial Park Script, but the final Script wound up at 117 pages. I read
this Script twice and the one before it once. Ben Hestley and David also
edited the Script. AHC took some of our suggestions and did not take some.
But had we not "hung in there with them," and gone against Commissioner Jeff
Jakeman with a vengeance, we would not have a Script for CMP Museum which
brings honor to our ancestors. Now we do. This has been a pitched battle
since Nov. 2 when we learned that ONE man, Jakeman, had stopped the original
Script and was holding up the Script and the opening of the Museum. Jakeman
got in his parting shots today, especially at Bill Rambo, but he did not
hit a target today.
The next time any of you go to CMP for Fall Muster or whatever??
please speak the park director, Bill Rambo. He is the REAL hero in all of
this. Had he not been in the place where he is as site director, we WOULD
NOT have the Script we have. General Rambo held the line for us. Please
express your appreciation to him when you see him.
It will still be a long time. . . . . . . .maybe a year !!! before
the museum opens. AHC has to let the Script out for bids.----- several
months!!! Then when the fabricator gets the Script, that will take I THINK
they said 4 months. Of course then the artifacts and display cases have to
be filled and placed. The think to keep in mind is that when we visit that
museum or when school children and even ****yankees visit, all will know
that we STILL honor those gallant heroes in this state. We still remember.
We still appreciate their sacrifice.
There were 10 SOCCI members and two other Confederates in
attendance at today's meetings to watch the "vote" which occurred shortly
before 3 P.M. Our detractor Jakeman had forced a vote on something earlier
and had WON that vote 6 - 7. So I began to get nervous for the Script vote.
I sent up a short silent prayer and when the Script vote came it was
UNANIMOUS. (Even Jakeman !!!)
Y'ALL were the heroes in this; you people out there in the
trenches who called, faxed, emailed and wrote to Ms. Brown, Jakeman,
Drinkard, and the Governor's staff. Though SOCCI is visible, we could NEVER
win victories like this without the faithful troops like you out there
behind us loading and firing-----loading and firing.
Thank y'all. I love ya.
Ellen Williams
**************************************
I can assure you that Ellen's right. There are legions of us who called, faxed, emailed and wrote to Ms. Brown, Jakeman, Drinkard, and the Governor's staff.
And yes, we are ready to load and fire. Ellen says my letters are some of the finest she's seen ever and trust me, all these offices know me by name. LOL
Deo Vindice, My Southern Friends!
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
A follow up from Ellen Williams that tells more of this story.
Troopers, This just in from Bill Rambo, site director of Confederate Memorial Park.
When the dedication ceremony is held (and Rambo seems to think it'll be sooner than was indicated at yesterday's meeting), everyone of YOU who called, emailed, wrote or faxed can KNOW that YOU had a part in the museum and KNOW that your ancestor looks down upon YOU with pride and joy.
Ellen Williams
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Out of the mouths of babes 
Linear Mode
