Out of the mouths of babes

[Admiral_Porter]

Certainly the South was interested in slavery. You have never heard me deny that. But to answer your question regarding the motives of the mob (assuming it is a factual story), it would, no doubt, have been because Mrs. Stowe, a woman who had never set foot in the South and had no first hand knowledge of slavery wrote a book that fueled the hate and animosity that already existed toward the Southern people to a new level. Everyone knew it was a work of fiction, yet they assumed that Mrs. Stowe based the story on facts. And, of course she didn't stress the point to anyone that it was purely based on her imaginings of what slavery must be like. It probably wouldn't have made any difference if she had. The novel was so deliciously heart wrenching and inflaming that the people wanted to believe it. It was a slap in the collective faces of everyone in the South, slave owner or not.

Once again you defend slavery as not being that bad: Mrs. Stowe exaggerated the conditions of slavery so slavery wasn't really that bad.

Outside of the limited powers allowed to the Union by the states, the states retained in their sovereignty.

The states are NOT sovereign. If they were soveriegn then they would not be answerable to the laws of the Constitution.

The number of slave owners that owned 100 or more slaves was 2,024.

And yet that doesn't include all slaveowners. The ones who owned more than 100 slaves were the people with the political power to push secession.

Neither did poor dirt farmers of any color.

Better than being treated like you have no more value than a dead dog.

Not everyone belonged to a kind owner. It's these exceptions that folks are so fond of holding up for examples in order to give the impression that Southern slave owners were depraved, lazy, slave beating wretches. What other slave names come to your mind? Have you ever heard of Joshua, slave of Legh Wadell? Nothing much changed in their relationship after the war. Joshua asked Legh to purchase a small lot in town where he could open a shoe repair business and Legh obliged. You probably never heard of Aunt Pallus Lee (no relation to R.E.L.) either, she didn't cause a riot or get in the newspapers. She just defended and cared for her "white family" during the war refusing to leave them. She is one of those thousands that you never read about. She lived to be very old and her white family cared for her and buried her on the homeplace that she had lived on all of her life. You don't find these stories without seeking them out because they don't paint an ugly picture of the South.

Again you defend slavery as not being that bad by saying that mistreatment of slaves was uncommon.

House slaves had a better and closer relationship than field hands did.

If slavery were so great then why did runaways follow the Union army instead of staying on the plantations?

Did people check the classifieds for slave openings?

You are not understanding my remark, at all. I said, for the third time, that people who have never lived in close proximity with blacks, as we have in the South, can't understand the bonds and relationships that formed in the South. Please note, I said nothing about understanding black folks, I only mentioned understanding the relationships between the races in the South.

I understand what you are implying very clearly because I have lived in the south almost my entire life.

Slavery, de jure segregation, KKK lynchings, bombing of black churches, murder of the Freedom Riders, civil rights protesters attacked by police dogs, Rosewood murders, Lester Maddox chasing blacks out of his chicken restaurant with a knife, George Wallace saying segregation now and forever, etc. etc. This is your idea of a healthy racial relationship?

Sorry but the race relations between blacks and whites has not been as harmonious as you would like to believe.

[Wild_Rose]

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Once again you defend slavery as not being that bad: Mrs. Stowe exaggerated the conditions of slavery so slavery wasn't really that bad.

No, I'm not saying slavery was't really that bad because Mrs. Stowe exaggerated. I'm saying slavery wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be and that Mrs. Stowe added fuel to the fire with her exaggerations.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

The states are NOT sovereign. If they were soveriegn then they would not be answerable to the laws of the Constitution.

The sovereign states gave limited powers to the Federal government. Outside of those limited powers the states were sovereign and remained so because they had the right to revoke those powers.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

And yet that doesn't include all slaveowners. The ones who owned more than 100 slaves were the people with the political power to push secession.

They could lobby, they could push, but in the end they had one vote just like anybody else. And giving the average citizen credit for his intelligence, I doubt anyone voted for the sole reason of allowing the big planters to keep slaves, in fact the planters weren't even in danger of losing their slaves.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Better than being treated like you have no more value than a dead dog.

I've never heard of anyone spending upwards of 1,500.00 to 2,000.00 for a dead dog.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Again you defend slavery as not being that bad by saying that mistreatment of slaves was uncommon.

I know. I catch a lot of flack for saying things like that. It is very politically incorrect. I realize that.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

House slaves had a better and closer relationship than field hands did.

Very true, but many, if not most, owners gave their field hands a small plot of land to farm and they could sell eggs and vegetables and such as they produced and keep the profit. Many were allowed to hire themselves out on days they didn't work for the owner. That wasn't uncommon. Incentives were often given and rewards in the form of money, privileges, special food, etc. were often given. Happy slaves were better workers than sullen and disconted slaves were and contrary to some beliefs, Southern planters weren't idiots, they knew this.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

If slavery were so great then why did runaways follow the Union army instead of staying on the plantations?

Because most of them envisioned freedom as having land, livestock and a profitable farm. They believed if they ran to the North all those things were just around the corner, because that's what they had been told and they wanted to believe it. Sadly, they thought they were going to a better life.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Did people check the classifieds for slave openings?

No, I doubt it. Generally they aspired to be the one in the big house and own their own slaves like so many blacks already did.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

I understand what you are implying very clearly because I have lived in the south almost my entire life.

If you understand what I'm saying, why do you keep acusing me of claiming that Southerners are the only ones that understand blacks? I didn't say anything even remotely like that.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Slavery, de jure segregation, KKK lynchings, bombing of black churches, murder of the Freedom Riders, civil rights protesters attacked by police dogs, Rosewood murders, Lester Maddox chasing blacks out of his chicken restaurant with a knife, George Wallace saying segregation now and forever, etc. etc. This is your idea of a healthy racial relationship?

Those things were highly visible in the South because of the high population of blacks. It was no different, proportionately, in the North.

It was during Reconstruction that the vindictive Union occupiers of the South enjoyed the sport of pitting blacks against whites. Blacks were taught they didn't have to show whites even common courtesy and they would be protected for being rude and impudent. Some were given political offices that they had no idea how to run but that didn't matter because they were only put in those offices to do the bidding of the Northern Republican puppetmasters. The KKK was formed out of necessity in order to protect Southern whites. Admittedly, it got out of control and eventually it worked against all peoples best interests.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Sorry but the race relations between blacks and whites has not been as harmonious as you would like to believe.

It's not what I would like to believe, it's what I've lived with. Even prior to desegregation black and white relations in the South were harmonious for the most part.

In 1942 my parents married. One week later, after the honeymoon, Bessie Smith, the black woman that worked for my Daddy's family all of his life, came to the door with a small suitcase. She informed my mother that she was there to spend a few days and teach her how to cook for "her boy", because she figured my mother didn't know how to prepare his favorite foods. My daddy loved her right back, he was closer to her than anyone else except for his mother. People don't care to hear these kind of stories and it's true, they aren't usually told. I don't know why...I guess they aren't exciting enough. No sensationalism. Who knows?

[Admiral_Porter]

No, I'm not saying slavery was't really that bad because Mrs. Stowe exaggerated. I'm saying slavery wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be and that Mrs. Stowe added fuel to the fire with her exaggerations.

You defend slavery. No real surprise there.

The sovereign states gave limited powers to the Federal government. Outside of those limited powers the states were sovereign and remained so because they had the right to revoke those powers.

The states can not revoke the powers of the Federal Government. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

Where did you get that fantasy from?

They could lobby, they could push, but in the end they had one vote just like anybody else.

And yet they controlled the political future of all southerners.

"The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes." -Abraham Lincoln to his friend Joshua Speed

And giving the average citizen credit for his intelligence, I doubt anyone voted for the sole reason of allowing the big planters to keep slaves, in fact the planters weren't even in danger of losing their slaves.

No they were not in danger of losing their slaves. But it was a perceived danger that Lincoln, as the leader of the Black Republicans, would lead the south down a road they didn't care to go, ie abolition.

I've never heard of anyone spending upwards of 1,500.00 to 2,000.00 for a dead dog.

Probably not but they got the same treatment.

I know. I catch a lot of flack for saying things like that. It is very politically incorrect. I realize that.

It's statements like these that show that those of the pro-confederate nature haven't changed their views in over 140 years. The beliefs are still there but people just aren't as open about them as they once were.

"Davis described slavery itself as an institution which 'a superior race' had used to transform 'brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers.'" From Apostles of Disunion

Because most of them envisioned freedom as having land, livestock and a profitable farm. They believed if they ran to the North all those things were just around the corner, because that's what they had been told and they wanted to believe it. Sadly, they thought they were going to a better life.

They felt that they had a better chance to improve themselves and their children's lives than they ever would while as a slave in the south. Howard's Freedman's Bureau comes to mind.

Generally they aspired to be the one in the big house and own their own slaves like so many blacks already did.

How many slave owners were black?

Those that lived in Lousiana formed a black regiment but the Confederacy didn't trust them so they received no weapons. The Confederacy didn't trust blacks whether they were slaves or not.

If you understand what I'm saying, why do you keep acusing me of claiming that Southerners are the only ones that understand blacks? I didn't say anything even remotely like that.

There was an implication in your statement that us southerners know what's best for blacks because we have lived amongst them for so long so butt out.

Blacks were taught they didn't have to show whites even common courtesy and they would be protected for being rude and impudent.

After enduring hundreds of years of slavery why would you expect a group of people to suddenly respect those who enslaved them? They got uppity is what you mean.

That would be like expecting a Jew to respect a Nazi or Hamas suicide bomber.

Some were given political offices that they had no idea how to run but that didn't matter because they were only put in those offices to do the bidding of the Northern Republican puppetmasters.

Or just give the offices back to former Confederates who simply reestablished the old racial heirarchy of the Antebellum South through Jim Crow and de jure segregation.

The KKK was formed out of necessity in order to protect Southern whites.

This is just the icing on the cake: white southerners were being "oppressed" so they needed a terror organization to intimidate the newly freed blacks.

it's what I've lived with. Even prior to desegregation black and white relations in the South were harmonious for the most part.

Like you stated earlier it was only when blacks knew their place and weren't rude.

[Admiral_Porter]

Rose, your last post was very revealing. It explains a lot.

[Wild_Rose]

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

You defend slavery. No real surprise there.

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of me. Not only do you accuse me of defending slavery you seem to be calling me a liar since I've stated many times that I do not defend that which is indefensible.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

The states can not revoke the powers of the Federal Government. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

Where did you get that fantasy from?

The states delegated certain powers to the federal government. Some of those states even had it written into their state constitutions that resuming self government was an option. They were accepted into the U.S. with those stipulations. Other states simply accepted for granted that which they voluntarily joined could voluntairly be revoked.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

"The slave-breeders and slave-traders, are a small, odious and detested class, among you; and yet in politics, they dictate the course of all of you, and are as completely your masters, as you are the master of your own negroes." -Abraham Lincoln to his friend Joshua Speed

He got it half right.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

"No they were not in danger of losing their slaves. But it was a perceived danger that Lincoln, as the leader of the Black Republicans, would lead the south down a road they didn't care to go, ie abolition.

Possibly, but the first path Lincoln chose was that of proctectionism and high tariffs.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

It's statements like these that show that those of the pro-confederate nature haven't changed their views in over 140 years. The beliefs are still there but people just aren't as open about them as they once were.

I just tell it like it is. If people have been indoctrinated to believe the canned version of Northern history that is not my problem. It's regretful that they preach tolerance and understanding yet have none in them. I can tell of my experiences growing up in the segregated South and my grandparents experiences. People can read of other Southern experiences yet come to a conclusion that is totally biased and off track by completely discounting the truth in favor of the Northern version that makes them feel good.

I fully understand that if anyone were to admit there just may be some truth in what Southern people are saying, they would have to reexamine their stand on a number of things like invasion, looting, burning, war against women and children, etc.. I also understand that since that hasn't happened in 140 years it's not about to happen now.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

They felt that they had a better chance to improve themselves and their children's lives than they ever would while as a slave in the south. Howard's Freedman's Bureau comes to mind.

But they didn't, at least not for several generations. The Bureau did some good, but they couldn't even keep hunger away for all the freed slaves. It was so difficult that some slaves even claimed that slavery had been better for them.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

How many slave owners were black?

I'd have to research that, but in New Orleans alone, it has been recorded that more than 3,000 free blacks owned slaves.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Those that lived in Lousiana formed a black regiment but the Confederacy didn't trust them so they received no weapons. The Confederacy didn't trust blacks whether they were slaves or not.

Unfortunately, that was the official Confederate policy. Many Southerners disagreed with that stand.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

There was an implication in your statement that us southerners know what's best for blacks because we have lived amongst them for so long so butt out.

There was no such implication in my statement. You are reading something into it that isn't there, but since I've explained myself and denied that accusation three times, I see no reason to defend myself for a fourth time.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

After enduring hundreds of years of slavery why would you expect a group of people to suddenly respect those who enslaved them? They got uppity is what you mean.

No, I'm not really prone to saying things I don't mean and odd though it may seem, what I said is what I meant.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

That would be like expecting a Jew to respect a Nazi or Hamas suicide bomber.

I'm sure it would fall on deaf ears for me to explain how courtesy and respect was a general practice in the South among black and white, alike. You chose to compare Southern people to Nazis and that is your perogative. Moving up into the forties and fifties, even during segregation, only a child from what would be considered a white trash family would dare sass or disrespect an elder black man or woman. To do so would bring down severe punishment.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Or just give the offices back to former Confederates who simply reestablished the old racial heirarchy of the Antebellum South through Jim Crow and de jure segregation.

I'm afraid that is what society was like then. It was no better in the North with their de facto segregation.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

This is just the icing on the cake: white southerners were being "oppressed" so they needed a terror organization to intimidate the newly freed blacks.

Actually, the early KKK was more involved with resisting Reconstruction, the carpet bagger and the scalawags that sought to bring further ruin to the South. The violence was directed more toward these white men than to any black. The Southern people denounced the violence that soon showed it's face within the Klan. They were fairly short lived. A second and eventually third attempt to revive the KKK was made.

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Like you stated earlier it was only when blacks knew their place and weren't rude.

I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else. I never said blacks knew their place or should know their place. I only referred to blacks that suddenly became rude and insolent due to their being told to do so by Union occupiers. That was intolerable to the local Southerners, but I'm guessing that you believe those Southerners deserved whatever they got, never mind that more than 75% of those Southern families never owned a slave, never mind that most had always been courteous and generous with those blacks that suddenly turned against them. While this angered Southerners, I believe most of them realized it wasn't the fault of the blacks or the Southern whites.

Regards,
Rose

[Wild_Rose]

Originally Posted by Admiral_Porter

Rose, your last post was very revealing. It explains a lot.

As was yours, Admiral.

Regards.