Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
It's not the 'Irish', we've had enough troubles with overseers, must be something else.
I don't know of Irish overseers. Are they troublesome? I wouldn't doubt it.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
I'm trying to figure out how to not quote an entire post. I'll keep working on it,
BUT
you quoted Seward. That's the present equivalent of quoting Jesse Jackson or any other rulerwannabe type. It don't work that way, Rose. I'll wager that the "higher calling" appeared in the newspapers a time or two, and in some abolitionist screeds, but that the populace was not moved to that way of thinking. The point: Seward talking about a "higher calling" was in no way indicative of popular thought. Simply pretty words appearing in an editorial or two. It does not necessarily portray prevailing opinion.
From memory. We seem to be at odds over what was important and what was not with regard to abolitionist agitation. Harriet Beecher Stowe's book, while unimportant, had a huge impact at the time. It gave birth to an enormous blossom of antislavery feeling among the uncommitted. It also gave birth to a paranoic reaction among the slaveholders and those who wished to find another reason to gather just a touch more political power.
Strange, isn't it, that we can look back and try to assign such dire causations to such a simple thing as a best-seller?
There exist many subtle influences on the confederacy's dissaffection with the vocal abolitionists. It's becoming apparent that the cause/effect slid way out of proportion to the stimuli. What do you suppose gave rise to that? Seriously.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Seward was an influential man in his day. The Abolitionists certainly loved him, but I find it outrageous that a man, a representative of the United States Government, could make a statement that he answered to a higher law than the Constitution without some sort of negative feedback. Since no one in the North (that I'm aware of) spoke up to disagree with him, I conclude that they must have agreed.
I think you somewhat minimize the effect of Stowe's novel. That Lincoln jokingly called her "the little lady that started this big war", is some indication of the impact her book had. She always protested that her book was not against Southerners, but against slavery. How she distinguished between the two, I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ole
There exist many subtle influences on the confederacy's dissaffection with the vocal abolitionists. It's becoming apparent that the cause/effect slid way out of proportion to the stimuli. What do you suppose gave rise to that? Seriously.
Ole
In the beginning I don't believe that the careless insults that were bantered back and forth between Abolitionists and Southern slave owners were anything more than talk. Southerners were sure of their place in the world and they reasoned, if the North didn't like it...well, what could they do about it. It was irksome that they slung insults at Southern integrity and that certainly didn't cause the South to love the North, but again, as they reasoned, what could the North do?
Then it became aparent to the South that Northern industry was attracting immigrants by the hoardes and politically the North soon could do plenty about it. This is when the South began to take the Abolitionists seriously. Mrs. Stowe's book had sold 50,000 copies and was printed in 40 languages adding fuel to a slow burning fire. Then along comes John Brown and as if that weren't bad enough, the Northern reaction to John Brown was appaling to Southerners.
With the Democratic Party split and the rapid population increase in the North, I believe the South understood the time had come to submit to the Northern rule or secede. The handwriting was on the wall and the Southern democrats were about to be squeezed out. Northern rule meant abolition, of course, but it also meant the financial ruin of the South, the loss of power in government and of becoming too weak and ineffective in Congress to protect Southern interests.
If I had to pin point the first single incident that marked the point of no-return, It would be Harper's Ferry or more accurately, the Northern reaction to Harper's Ferry. I believe this ended what little mutual respect the North and South had for one another and made the South realize the true extent of animosity and the hopelessness of ever living harmoniously with the Northern states.
So, that's my opinion and it won't even buy a cup of coffee...(sigh)
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
It's worth at least a cup of coffee. As you are not here, I will drink it for you. It's very good. I'm starting to get the hang of it.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Over the weekend I visited with relatives from central LA. It seems that quite a few people from the Pelican State have come to the conclusion that they are Southerners, regardless of race. First, in the aftermath of Katrina, there were rumblings of racial reasons for the slowness of help arriving in lower LA. Now it seems, the compass needle has shifted. Unknown to many people, there are hundreds of people still living in tents, Some are not allowed on their own property. They are not allowed to use perfectly good building materials from damaged property, because FEMA pays contractors by the cubic yard to remove it, and according to the locals, the yankee contractors would be losing money if any of the material was removed. The general contractors are paid roughly $80.00 per cubic yard to remove debris, and they import people and equipment to accomplish this. The locals, who have lost homes and jobs are able to stand by and watch contractors get wealthy, while they have no income or housing. The locals have a hard time understanding how people who lost loved ones in the WTC recieved an average of 1.4 million dollar settlements, and some of them get nothing. They are calling it "The Second Reconstruction." This is going to be interesting to see how the "reconstruction progresses. My source is a school teacher.
G-E-C-C-C-D-E-F-G-G-G-E
__________________ Homer Gross Ellison L. Gross, 13th GA Cav, Daniel Boykin, 46th MS Inf, William C. Underwood, Co E, 6th MS Inf.
I sure consider people in Louisiana to be Southerners regardless of race! What those folks are going through is terrible. What can we do? It seems donating money hasn't helped all that much. In fact a lot of people are looking at the progress and asking what happened to all that money from donations.
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
They are not allowed to use perfectly good building materials from damaged property, because FEMA pays contractors by the cubic yard to remove it, and according to the locals, the yankee contractors would be losing money if any of the material was removed. The general contractors are paid roughly $80.00 per cubic yard to remove debris, and they import people and equipment to accomplish this. The locals, who have lost homes and jobs are able to stand by and watch contractors get wealthy, while they have no income or housing.
Perhaps everyone would be happier if the entire clean-up was postponed for another six months while homeowners and scavangers were allowed to rip out and haul away (or most likely store on site) anything and everything they think is reusable. Or maybe they envision it being alright to do this scavaging amidst excavators and payloaders and triaxles. Yep....no problem there.
I can assure you that a timely and efficient clean-up on the one hand, and private recycling of "perfectly good building materials" on the other is not compatible. It would be a recipe for disaster. I can almost hear the lawyers packing their suitcases for the Gulf right now.
Can you tell me what is meant by "Yankee contractors would be losing money"? Does this mean that if a contractor is from a northern state he will lose money if some "perfectly good building materials" are removed, but a contractor form the South won't? Or does it mean that all clean-up contractors are Yankees from up North? And if it means the latter, does it mean that the South doesn't have any demo and clean-up people, so they all had to be imported from the North? I can also assure you that the clean-up contractors who have to crunch up the remains of a house and pack it in the box of a truck couldn't care less if the kitchen cabinets have been removed. They are paid by the yard because that's the way rubble is loaded and hauled....by the yard. Trucks fill up by the yard. Landfills fill up by the yard.
What is evident is that "Yankee" is just a term used for anyone who a southerners feels like griping about? I guess if you don't like the price of gas, its because of Yankee oil companies and refineries, right?
As an aside, I recall an article in Reason magazine years ago which pointed out an unexpected consequence to well intentioned price regulating in Florida after major hurricanes. In an effort to keep roofless people from being "ripped off", out of state contractors and suppliers were prohibited from charging for work and materials above some sort of state set limit. Sounds good, right?
The effect was that there was no longer any incentive to pack up the truck and crew and head South in the aftermath. For suppliers in other states, there was no incentive to clear out their warehouses of plywood and shingles (thus raising local prices for their customers) and truck it to the aftermath. The state had taken tight reins of the situation, and the result was that homeowners who would have been happy to pay maybe 20% more to have a roof put on their house TODAY were having to wait for months and months to have it done as crews and materials became available.
Maybe someone here from Florida can attest to whether this is true or not, or overstated.
There is simply NO WAY to make everyone happy all the time, especially when the government is involved. What looks like a perfect solution from this side, looks incredibly stupid from the other. No one wins. We just have to get it behind us. Nothing personal. Just business.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Cedar stripper-
I didn't dream of Katrina. I was 50 miles from the MS coast when she visited, and have pictures to prove it. I was in Hattiesburg when the FEMA trailers began moving South. For 8 weeks I was on or near the MS Gulf Coast. Many of the trailers that were moved in while I was there are still not inhabited. The people are told that they can't move in until proper water and sewer connections are available. Local churches still make monthly visits to the Waveland area taking food and other neccessities.
I don't think that you can assure me anything about a timely cleanup on the MS Coast unless you can provide me with pictures taken within the last 10 days. My first post was about LA, which was heresay. Ms people are not complaining as bad, but some of them are still having problems.
Having to pay more for a roof? Insurance and repair prices are based on the cost of living in an area. The cost of living near the coast prior to Katrina was substantually less than in most northern cities. Many people simply can't afford the 20-30% higher labor required from those normally making twice what the same laborer would make in the coast area.
Many insurance claims are going to court because the insurance claimed that the storm surge was not covered in the policy, the house was ruined by flood rather than storm. With the house not being in a flood zone. They had insurance, so FEMA won't give the folks a copper dime.
In MS Sep. 05, there was at least one incident of cleanup crews sawing down trees that were not damaged beyond help, because they were handy to make a load. I am looking, as I type this, at a pile of debris that the cleanup crew left because it wasn't enough to make a full load.
__________________ Homer Gross Ellison L. Gross, 13th GA Cav, Daniel Boykin, 46th MS Inf, William C. Underwood, Co E, 6th MS Inf.
I don't think that you can assure me anything about a timely cleanup on the MS Coast unless you can provide me with pictures taken within the last 10 days.
That's not what I said. I said a timely clean-up and homeowners scavanging for reusable materials are not compatible. You can have machines and trucks....or you can have homeowners having run of the property. You can't have both.
As for my aside comment about roofing contractors after a hurricane, and free market incentives providing quick service, my only point is to unintended consequences.
What I really wanted to know was why the term "Yankees" was used to disparage the contractors there. Are they all truly from up North, or do just the ones from up North prohibit scavaging, or is the term just used as a derogatory when someone is bitter?
I am sorry for the h*ll you and your family must be going through. I have a customer who went home to Gauthier, MS about two weeks before Katrina hit, and it looked like Gauthier took a pretty direct hit, but I hear he was inland enough to escape being wiped out.
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