Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
May I add my name to your list as one who is totally perplexed over the various opinions of Americans upon Liberty and self government on this board and others. For I feel exactly the same way in regard to various opinions I've read, of liberty self government, and I too am deeply saddend.
You brought forth much to ponder and I'm grateful.
At the time when I first started dabbling in CWT I was happy for my government to routinely back American foreign policy. After a couple of years of absorbing the various opinions floating around CWT I can safely say that I now have a nearly opposite point of view.
Interesting precedent: your point of view of current American foreign policy (or your government's support of it) is predicated and shaped by your experience of the opinions of various posters on an American Civil War message board?
It is a position which is hard to defend intellectually, I admit.
But you must bear in mind how limited my experience of listening to the opinions of the "American man in the street" has been. Essentially, CWT is my first real exposure to it.
Some of the opinions expressed have scared me witless. I have moved from the position of assuming that Americans think just like people in other western democracies to that of assuming more or less the opposite.
You may think that such a dramatic change is hardly warranted, but I can only react to the evidence to which I am exposed.
Is liberty possible w/out Union? Not in this world. Hal how long would you last as a Nation of Hal? About long enough for somebody to see you as a target... A nation of self can't call for help from the police unless he hires them to watch them himself.
Shane:
At what point do you trade liberty for security? And how does one reconcile the Patriot Act to civil liberties?
So, in the case of 1776, the view of the people of the English Empire was the only legitimate one on the question of whether her American colonies had a legitimate gripe?
Cash, at least you are consistently against liberty.
Hal
Hal,
In 1776 the American colonists did not have legal recourse under a Constitution with provisions for representation and for changing the Constitution itself if necessary. Such possibilities did exist in the United States in 1860-61.
best,
marc
__________________ "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
Fair enough, then. I perceive in your response a level of candor and earnest expression and will humbly submit to you, then, that you are entitled (forthrightly and respectfully) to your opinion.
If I may?
I hope that you’ll continue, as well, to bear in mind that determining the opinions of the ‘American man on the street’ (not unlike us determining the opinions of the ‘British man on the street’) can be challenging and difficult to homogenize (recognizing the pitfalls inherent even in the temptation to do so). Nevertheless, I believe through your open acknowledgement of the somewhat precariousness of your stated opinion, I can, in turn, fully appreciate the difficulty of assessing the opinions, thoughts, ideas, etc., of everyday, ‘normal’ Americans. As I implied above, probably not altogether dissimilar to a reversed situation whereby we seek to know the opinions, ideas, etc., of the average, everyday, Brit. Thanks for your thoughtful response; on that note….
I'm not the one defending people who rebelled for the purpose of continuing to keep slaves.
Regards,
Cash
Neither am I.
But you are the one claiming that a people have no right to decide if they have been wronged enough to sever political ties or not -- that those inflicting the perceived harm are the ones that hold the power to decide if they have inflicted enough harm on them to justify it.
And you have said you don't believe the people of the south in 1860-61 had the right to govern themselves without permission from the faction controlling the government they no longer wanted to be part of. You have shown that you don't believe the people of Taiwan have the right to independence without the approval of the communist Chinese. You have indicated that you don't believe the people of East Timor have the right to govern themselves without Indonesia's blessing.
Hal,
In 1776 the American colonists did not have legal recourse under a Constitution with provisions for representation and for changing the Constitution itself if necessary. Such possibilities did exist in the United States in 1860-61.
best,
marc
The constitution was not the problem. The problem was those controlling the execution of it. Legal recourse is only as valuable as the faithfulness of those executing and creating the laws.
But you are the one claiming that a people have no right to decide if they have been wronged enough to sever political ties or not -- that those inflicting the perceived harm are the ones that hold the power to decide if they have inflicted enough harm on them to justify it.
As Marc said, under the Constitution we have means of redress. When the Constitution is not enough, the whole people of the United States can change it or abolish it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawglips
And you have said you don't believe the people of the south in 1860-61 had the right to govern themselves without permission from the faction controlling the government they no longer wanted to be part of.
No, I didn't say that. I said they needed the consent of the other parties to the Constitution. That's not encompassed by the Republican Party.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawglips
You have shown that you don't believe the people of Taiwan have the right to independence without the approval of the communist Chinese.
That's the official policy of this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawglips
You have indicated that you don't believe the people of East Timor have the right to govern themselves without Indonesia's blessing.
If you'll check what I actually said, you'll see I didn't say what you are claiming.
Some of the opinions expressed have scared me witless. I have moved from the position of assuming that Americans think just like people in other western democracies to that of assuming more or less the opposite.
You may think that such a dramatic change is hardly warranted, but I can only react to the evidence to which I am exposed.
Regards,
Bill
Bill, I would like to lend you comfort by saying the opinions you have seen on these boards are not held by many Americans. However, I am troubled to advise you that I have come to the same conclusion you have, based on a much broader cross-section of "man on the street" discussions of the topic. I am almost certain that those sentiments are held by the vast majority of us. I think this is another bitter fruit of the path we took in '61.
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