Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
It has been brought to my attention that all threads on this board tend to degenerate into a discussion concerning involuntary servitude as a cause, or THE cause of the Civil War.
It is my intention with this new thread to totally ban the subject of helotry, serfdom, servility, servitude, thrall, thralldom or thraldom, villeingage, and involuntary servitude in any shape or form, so that other reasons for the Civil War may be discussed.
At no time shall the 's' word be used or discussed nor shall any theory be advanced concerning it nor any scenario be used as an excuse for a particular outcome or pretext for actions concerning the 1861-1865 period.
Those who wish to debate other areas and causes of the war are invited to do so at this thread, but remember, at no time will involuntary servitude be used for a cause, explanation or be used to explain actions or outcomes. The very idea must be totally banned from this thread if it is to proceed along the lines of debate desired.
If you cannot debate within these paramaters, then please, do not post here.
With the above being stated and clarified, who will be the first to give us a subject for this thread that meets it's requirements?
Thank you for your cooperation and assistance.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
My belief is that the nullification crisis added the element of hostility and forced the differences to a higher magnitude, one that was capable of separating us permenantly. Without Calhoun splitting us apart in 1832 with the SC crisis, the Mexican War debate would not have taken such a shrill and bitter tone.
Respectfully,
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 11-27-2005 at 01:36 PM.
My belief is that the nullification crisis added the element of hostility and forced the differences to a higher magnitude, one that was capable of separating us permenantly. Without Calhoun splitting us apart in 1832 with the SC crisis, the Mexican War debate would not have taken such a shrill and bitter tone.
Respectfully,
Matt
Ah, but if we look at William Freehling's work, Prelude to Civil War, which was about the Nullification Crisis, we can see that it was about that word that shall not be uttered in this thread, and His Satanic Majesty, John C. Calhoun himself admitted such. I'm afraid this incident falls outside the parameters of this thread.
I am very serious concerning this thread and I do hope it does not become the 'shortest' thread on record at this board.
Time and time again, real distress has been recorded at each and every thread whenever the subject of involuntary servitude has been mentioned as a reason or cause of the Civil War. Some threads, such as Bill Torrens, have attempted to discount this reason as a sole cause of the war and have attempted to explore other causes and areas.
I submit that we make a real effort to explore these other avenues, causes and reasons and I ask all who post here to abide by the rule that the 's' word CANNOT be used as a cause or reason when examining these other causes or presentations. My only stipulation is that NO poster use the cause or wording that alludes to involuntary servitude in their presentations or posts and that we fully explore other alternatives to what sparked the late contest between the states.
Ceaderstripper, I do hope you will participate in this thread and contribute to it. I do not consider it censorship, but a challenge, as I hope you will do also.
Again, I ask when those who do post here state their case, reasoning and sources when putting forth their cause of another reason for the war. I hope those who reply will also directly address the case without resorting to using the case or cause of involuntary servitude.
Let's see how we do on answering those cases and posts in another ballpark, shall we?
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I disagree that milhistbuff1's scenario violates the parameters of this thread. What you and I believe because of what we have read and researched is not mentioned nor do I believe this is sufficent reason to cut off such a proposed cause contributing to the Civil War. He does not mention involuntary servitude in his post, so shall we see were his line of reasoning goes?
Cash, in your reply to milhistbuff1, can you not find another area that would refute nullification over tariffs was a separate issue that added another area of contention between the North and the South?
I am assuming that he meant that South Carolina was upset over the idea that the tariff was unfair to the South in general and South Carolina in particular and that it favored the North in a decidely unfair way. Is there no historical evidence to support this scenario?
Why not instead go with the approach that the very act of nullification was seen as an act of treason, by the federal government, President Andrew Jackson, and by-the-way, most of the Southern states at the time. Wasn't this nonaction by the rest of the South one of the reasons South Carolina backed down, as it could gather no support for its actions during the Nullification Crisis, not even from it's fellow Southern States?
So, in my own answer to milhistbuff1, how could the nullification crisis become an area of increased tension, when not even the South viewed South Carolina's actions to be legal, desirable or anything they wanted to do with?
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
unionblue,
I have found historical evidence for my prior post in the 1832 SC ordinance. The dominant cause is not even mentioned by name and an implied reference, only once. Read it yourself courtesy of the Avalon project at Yale
the comments in the next to last paragraph directly challenge Jackson to invade. Its no surprise he threatened to do so when you see what the SC convention passed.
Respectfully,
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 11-28-2005 at 10:11 AM.
Reason: repetitious sentance
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