Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Sam:
He tried but had to ultimately admit that it couldn't be separated from the whole.
Very interesting observations and, if he's right, there was no perceptable correlation between ownership and voting for or against secession!
I was more fascinated by his premise and that awesome database he and his people were working on.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I wish to reply to your above posts on this thread with just one quote by a famous American and then could you please tell me what this man was trying to say.
"When any one State in the American Union refuses obedience to the Confederation by which they have bound themselves, the rest have a natural right to compel obedience."
Thomas Jefferson, Writings, Vol. XVII.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You're jumping over one of the rules of Thomas was speaking of, once in, one cannot leave, not without the consent of the other club members. Saying your out doesn't make you out. Isn't that what the man is really saying?
Maybe President Andrew Jackson said it a little more clearly.
"Without union our independence and liberty would never have been achieved; without union they never can be maintained. Divided into twenty-four, or even smaller number, of separate communities, we shall see our internal trade burdened with numberless restraints and exactions; communication between distant points and sections obstructed or cut off; our sons made soldiers to deluge with blood the fields they now til in peace; the mass of our people borne down and impoverished by taxes to support armies and navies; and military leaders at the head of their victorious legions becoming our lawgivers and judges."
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You have managed to put under the spotlight a glaring offense of the radical abolitionist (emphasis added to divorce that group from others that simply wanted to spread a moral belief which was shared by southerners as well).
To be fair, Garrison himself began agitation with persuasion. He grew in despairing vitriol over a period approximating 30 years. Other reasonable voices tried the persuasion angle as well (even Hinton Helper). With a nod to Alabaman's belief in the ultimate goodness of man and the tide of morality, such a movement would likely have prevailed -- eventually.
The abolitionist rant, however, was countered by an equally unresonable reaction. Apparently, the moderate voice simply wasn't -- and isn't -- heard.
Thanks.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Cedarstripper:
I do now. Much thanks. I was halfways listening while reading Mildred Rutherford and sticking bookmarks on pages (I'll have to get to Staples today for more.), so I missed picking up the site.
Will spend some time on that.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Personally, I can't see how the words you have quoted are synonymous with "once in, you cannot leave". But that's very much a matter of personal opinion.
What really interests me is this: let's suppose for the sake of argument that the majority have the right to hold a minority of states in the Union, even against their will. Why would anyone wish to exercise such a right? Why would any reasonable group of people want to hold millions of others prisoners within a nation? Where is the pride or satisfaction in acting as a gaoler? I believe I am right in saying that Dawna would be prepared to see Quebec leave her country, if that is what the majority of Quebecois want. I would be prepared to see any disgruntled group leave the United Kingdom. What makes you Americans so different? In most contexts you are the torch-bearers of liberty; but in your own backyard you are perfectly prepared to be ruthless advocates of coercion. It's puzzling, and more than a little frightening.
Bill
Last edited by bill_torrens; 11-28-2005 at 01:27 PM.
Bill,
Considering we fought to free ourselves from British tyranny, i believe it was Washington DC's way of ensuring that the foreign powers did not gain a potential beachhead in the Continental US since we would be rather busy in the war. If the south successfully seceeded What was to prevent a few of them from rejoining the British Empire voluntarily. For a modern example of that, take a look at Belarus' desire to rejoin Russia.
Respectfully,
Matt
Last edited by milhistbuff1; 11-28-2005 at 01:36 PM.
I suppose the answer to that would be that, if some seceding states wanted to return to their British allegiance, who would have had the right to tell them that they couldn't?
What it always seems to come down to is the argument that U.S. interests would be harmed by secession and that, for that reason, the U.S. had the right to prevent it happening.
But I'm not at all sure that there is much moral force in the argument that "what serves our interests is necessarily right".
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