Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
With that said, with the way this thread has turned in the last few posts, I no longer wish to participate on it if it can no longer be held to its original intent. I am also of the opinion that Ami should lock it out so no more posts can be made here if the present trend continues.
Neil:
Well, it didn't take long to turn yet another new thread into a battleground for mud-slinging and personal aspersions. I've been away for a day and I was looking forward to new and spirited debating this morning; but I can see the nursery school is open for business again.
I'm appalled at times regarding the lack of manners and ill-feelings on these Boards, and I'm of the opinion that if you're having a 'Christopher Walken' morning, then perhaps you shouldn't post.
"Any time a member of this forum begins to make such comments of such a personal nature, he or she is no longer engaging in debate, but they are endeavoring to make a personal issue concerning the poster they are unhappy with. These are not issues for the board and they are in very poor taste and lack any type of civilized behavior this board should be concerned with and conduct its debates with. It is my opinion, such as it is and for what it is worth, having a thin-skin here is not an advantage but a liability."
Well said Neil. I for one am here to learn, and yet over and over again I find these threads are derailed by personal attacks against one another, and the original plot is lost. Debating is not necessarily for the feint of heart but it is great fun and a valuable learning experience. A little cattle-prodding is to be expected every now and then, but there is an art to having fun with someone, as opposed to belittling a person for the sake of sport.
A few thoughts on liberty/opinions:
“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. Were an opinion a personal possession of no value except to the owner; if to be obstructed in the enjoyment of it were simply a private injury, it would make some difference whether the injury was inflicted only on a few persons or on many. But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.” ~John Stuart Mill~
It's December 1st. I love this time of year so for at least the month of December, could we not put aside this constant carping and turn it into good will towards one another? Let's exchange coffee and cigars, and get this thread back to it's orginal intent...sans l'esclavage s'écoule et les insultes.
I hereby and forthwith declare a truce with you and all others on this board, for the month of December. I further promise to use the words 'please' and 'thank you' where ever possible in my future posts to you and all who post here on this thread.
I promise not to use personal jabs, snipes or other rude comments while debating you and all who participate on this thread. I will further ignore any comments directed at me of a personal nature and refuse to be drawn into a conversation, post or comment that degenerates into personal mud-slinging.
I will endeavor to be a gentleman at all times in my conversations with you, as I recognize that you are a fellow boardmember, a lady that I hold in high esteem and a person of worth that I may learn from.
This I swear in the name of December, the time of the year you love, and I will do everything within my power to honor your wishes for this month.
Hereby sworn this December 1, 2005, in the presence of Dawna, fellow boardmember and friend.
Sincerely,
Neil R. Hamilton aka Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
This is irrelevant to the WBTS, but anything which lightens the mood is welcome at the moment, I guess.
Your mentioning Xmas reminded me that I have long been meaning to express my professional fraternity with you. For five years as a student (like Zonker Harris, I did my best to extend my student days for as long as possible) I worked for the post office at Xmas. Had a neat bicycle, with a mail sack on the front. I had a ball cycling around, delivering the post. I found it really relaxing work. Even got to deliver letters to a genuine rock star: the lead guitarist with Uriah Heep (remember them?) lived on my round.
But my favourite game was played with an Alsatian dog. His owners left him alone all day in the house. I used to balance each letter half way through the door, and then flick it across the hallway. He would leap up, catch it, and tear it to shreds. Oh, the fun we had! I reckoned that it served the householders right for leaving such a beautiful animal on his own all day.
Sorry for this digression, but Xmas always makes me think of the post office.
A fellow traveller in all things postal! How nice to learn this one thing about you! I too, used to have a route when I first started as a Postal Relief Carrier, but no bike here in urban America, but a nice, old Ford sedan I bought for $500 American to meet my appointed rounds. No rock stars on my route, but plenty of characters, which I am sure you can relate to (and I do remember Uriah Heep).
I found it strange that before I worked for the Post Office, I could walk up to any strange dog and pet it with no problems, but once I started carrying the mail, it was impossible. My own theory is that paperdust from all that mail gives you a special sent that drives them crazy.
But that is all in my distant past, now that I work midnights and in an office.
Thanks for the digression, Bill, as I think we needed one.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
As an Adams, we have been known for our good manners and good faith. We have fought in all it's wars, including 'the one' which came very close to splitting asunder this Nation as we know it today. The Adams men have also signed some very important documents in the history of this great Land, the United States of America, which helped Unite it's public during the tragic times of it's origin.
With Adams dignity, I would be Honoured to have my name added just below your name, in declaring my sincere devotion to the true meaning of the forementioned informal truce. If my Honour be attacked without just provocation, shall I rely upon you, sir, for assistance in defensive posture with nonpartisan devotion? And I, of course, will do the same in your case, if the same shall visit you.
Shall I have the opportunity to do this, sir? I would be grateful for a kind reply from you regarding my sincere request.
I am reminded of a quote about honor I once heard.
"Be honorable yourself if you wish to associate with honorable people."
Wendell L. Wilkie, presidential candidate.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
If I discern your reply correctly, you prescribe to the notion that I have violated the sanctity of your perception of honour?
Being of moderate temperament and giving you the benefit of possessing a true Honour of the enhanced spirit of our good intention, I respectfully allow you the opportunity to elaborate upon your meaning to me, upon the included quotation. If you would, sir, I kindly ask an explanation.
I see the problem with your 'truce' presently. I was declaring my oath to God and you were swearing yours to "December." Perhaps you said this with pun intended?
I hereby seceede from your 'truce' and will prescribe to the one that truly counts.
The postal stories were fun. My wife's dog (the wife is the mommy ... I refused to be daddy so I'm hubby) gets her dander up when the newspaper boy is due. Boy, girl, old guy, mature lady --- doesn't matter. The dog wants the paper-delivery person dead. We've gotten to the point where she may not be outside anywhere near the time the paper is due. She's getting on the old side and frequently can't make the jump into the truck for her daily ride, but she's spry enough in the neighborhood of 3 p.m.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
If the North was dependent on Southern foodstuffs to feed its people then surely there should have been widespread starvation by late 1861?
The industrial infrastructure of the South in 1861 was, relatively speaking, non-existent.
But Bill, aren't we specifically talking about what the United States became after the war? That's what I was talking about anyway, and that's what I understood Matt was saying when he said, "If we did what the south asked long term, we would be a 3rd rate power today."
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_torrens
As for military manpower, it is true that the South has always made a disproportionate contribution to American arms. But that was a luxury the North could have learned to live without. Its own population was large enough to generate armed forces of immense size, and that population was being augmented every year by immigration.
However, when you reduce the available pool of manpower you inevitably reduce the size and quality of the force you are able to field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_torrens
The scientific expertise of individual Southerners was another luxury which the North could have survived losing.
Again, when you reduce the available pool you inevitably reduce the size and quality of what you are able to field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_torrens
Besides, who is to say that it would have been impossible to recruit Southern scientists just because their country was independent? People do work abroad, you know. Look how German expertise got you to the moon.
So we'd have to conquer the south in order to use their scientists the same way we got the German scientists?
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