Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
There is a very good case that Lincoln's policy of steering a middle course was working. Absent the confederates starting the war by firing on Fort Sumter or Fort Pickens, the southern states eventually realize the error of their ways and make their way back into the fold, thus ending the rebellion peacefully. It was already happening, and Davis saw it happening. That and the need to bring the upper south into the confederacy were the reasons why he ordered the firing on Fort Sumter. He needed a war to unite the confederate population and to bring the upper south into the confederacy.
The idea that Fort Sumter was of little importance is historically inaccurate and quite plainly laughable.
Regards,
Cash
Cash, i am inclined to agree with you on this, till we get to the last sentence. It seems we are talking at cross purposes. If it is as you say, as i quote you above, that the Confederacy needed to start the war, then the war starts. i agree with this. The Southerners maintain that Lincoln started the War by aggression toward the South and that he meant to have war. Okay, that's their take. My point is that the issue of the firing on Ft Sumter is secondary to the war starting. At what point and how and by whom and for what reason is all immaterial. The point is the war would start. Ft Sumter, Twiggs's surrender, Ft Pickens, firing on the Star of the West, hanging Unionists, hanging separatists- any reason, anything could have been what history gives us as the firing on Ft Sumter. That issue is entirely secondary to the fact that a separate secessionist American government was in operation opposite and within the bounds of the Federal authority. Such a situation could not go on, making the issue of Ft Sumter possible. Ft Sumter is not unimportant; it is just that it could have been anything and did not need to be Ft Sumter.
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Hey Unionblue,
Yes sir I realize that the Confederacy empoyed the draft first.The point I wanted to make was that the public didn't have to riled up over the Fort Sumpter issue for the North to invade the South.Many Union soldiers were certainly couragous and heroic I'll
never dispute that.
I am one of the few Confederate sympathizers who hold that secession was illegal under the Constitution.I'm in agreement with you there.However,I do believe that many Southerners truly believed it was legal to secede.I bring up Lincoln because using the Constitution to explain why he invaded the South doesn't hold water in my opinion when he himself never adhered to the Constitution.
I must say I have really enjoyed your discourse with EWC.Both of your responses have been very educational.
Cash, i am inclined to agree with you on this, till we get to the last sentence. It seems we are talking at cross purposes. If it is as you say, as i quote you above, that the Confederacy needed to start the war, then the war starts. i agree with this. The Southerners maintain that Lincoln started the War by aggression toward the South and that he meant to have war. Okay, that's their take. My point is that the issue of the firing on Ft Sumter is secondary to the war starting. At what point and how and by whom and for what reason is all immaterial. The point is the war would start.
Again, not necessarily. If Davis decided that going back into the Union was preferable to a war, then it doesn't start. Lincoln had already said he wasn't going to strike the first blow.
Sumter is important precisely because that's where the war started. If the war had started at Fort Pickens, then Fort Pickens would be important because that would have been where the war started.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewc
Ft Sumter, Twiggs's surrender, Ft Pickens, firing on the Star of the West, hanging Unionists, hanging separatists- any reason, anything could have been what history gives us as the firing on Ft Sumter. That issue is entirely secondary to the fact that a separate secessionist American government was in operation opposite and within the bounds of the Federal authority. Such a situation could not go on, making the issue of Ft Sumter possible. Ft Sumter is not unimportant; it is just that it could have been anything and did not need to be Ft Sumter.
It seems to me then, that you disagree with Bill, unless I misunderstand one or both of you. Fort Sumter's importance is that it was the start of the war. Bill said the firing on Fort Sumter was merely incidental. Without the war starting some place, there is no war. At that time there were only two real locations for the war to start, Sumter and Pickens. I suppose in some outlandish scenario the confederates could have attacked Washington, DC, but I regard that as so infinitesimal a likelihood as to be outside the reasonable range of possibility. Anyway, if the war was going to start it would most likely start in one of those two locations, Sumter or Pickens. Had Davis allowed the unimpeded resupply of Fort Sumter, then the war does not start there. All that is required is for Davis to not decide to fire on either Sumter or Pickens and there is no war, then slowly the confederate states drop their rebellion and come back into the fold. But he made the decision to start the war.
The place the war starts, though, is important precisely because it is the place the war starts.
If Davis decided that going back into the Union was preferable to a war, then it doesn't start. Lincoln had already said he wasn't going to strike the first blow.
Cash- about President Davis- no, the war starts no matter, the only way there is no war is if there is no secession. I agree that the responsibility for starting the war rests with President Davis and the Confederate authorities. He didn't want war, but was the Confederacy coming back to the Union peacably? I don't see any possibility of that happening. The fact that the Confederacy even existed meant that things had got beyond the point where the opoosite sides could negotiate, live together, accept one another on some middle ground. Davis did not want war, but had to accept war, indeed, had to start war, simply because down this road all had tread.
Did President Lincoln want war? Of course not- like he wanted more problems than he needed! Lincoln very wisely avowed he would not strike the first blow. But neither was he unready. He did not strike, but he did not relax any pressure on the South. This issue must be decided, it could not rest indefinitely. If feelings could subside, all the better. If he could keep the border states and the North calm, wonderful. If he could keep the peace, great, But sooner or later, the Union must come first.
Both Lincoln and Davis knew it could not be later. Great if it could, but it just wasn't going to happen. War was coming, by crook or by hook. It was coming because the Confederacy existed, and both knew it. The only thing these men could attain was in just what form it would come. Do i set the conditions or do I allow conditions to be set? Davis could not wait at Ft Sumter and allow the seccessionist, impulsive Carolina hotheads to drag him into a war. He also could not allow Lincoln to resupply the fort and extend that possibility indefinitely. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place, either way, war was coming. The thing is, somehow or another, the extremists would see to it that a war would happen- logical and moderate men were only going to have a say in how. Because that's the point things had come to. The time for avoiding war was long past. That is why I say the Civil War starts with secession, the die was cast before Ft Sumter.
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Cash- about President Davis- no, the war starts no matter, the only way there is no war is if there is no secession. I agree that the responsibility for starting the war rests with President Davis and the Confederate authorities. He didn't want war, but was the Confederacy coming back to the Union peacably? I don't see any possibility of that happening.
As the excerpts I provided showed, it was already happening. All that was required was for Davis to decide to allow it to continue rather than go to war. Only two people could decide to start the war -- Davis and Lincoln, and Lincoln had already ruled it out. The confederate populace was already becoming nostalgic for the old Union. Lincoln's strategy of steering the middle course was working. If Davis decided that the cost of war was too great, then eventually there is peaceful reunion.
As the excerpts I provided showed, it was already happening. All that was required was for Davis to decide to allow it to continue rather than go to war. Only two people could decide to start the war -- Davis and Lincoln, and Lincoln had already ruled it out. The confederate populace was already becoming nostalgic for the old Union. Lincoln's strategy of steering the middle course was working. If Davis decided that the cost of war was too great, then eventually there is peaceful reunion.
Regards,
Cash
Cash- i just cannot agree. Lincoln's middle course was the right one, he just wasn't going to have the luxury of seeing it through. Why did Davis order Sumter reduced? So that it was done on his authority and war not started by some ****able hotheaded extremist, only making his situation all the worse. And the hotheads were not just there in Charleston, though Charleston was topheavy in them, but everywhere. Davis could keep them out of his cabinet, but he couldn't, nor could Lincoln, ultimately stop them from taking the country to war. If not at Sumter, then someplace else. There were just too much kindling in this forest with lightning bolts everywhere.
My regards, ed
__________________ 'It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag'
Friend there is just no way the already seceded states were going to come back to the Union.You're dreaming.Many accounts of the day speak of patriotism in the South bubbling over.I suppose those city wide parties and fireworks celebrating independence were signs of nostalgia for the Old Union huh?War was coming and both Lincoln and Davis knew it.As for the Upper South and the border states it can be debated where their loyalty would lie in this mythical world with no war.I'm from Mobile,Alabama and I've read old newspapers but I haven't heard of the MobileMercury.Cash was that paper from here or what city was it from?I'm curious.I know of only one Mobile and I'm almost positive there was no Mobile Mercury ever in existence.
Have a good one,
Ashley
Cash: Lincoln had already said he wasn't going to strike the first blow.
...Unless of course the blood-thirsty Confederates were serious about independence, and refused to pay duties to the US government or wouldn't allow them to hold military installations within their borders. Then invasion was to be expected, as the good president declared in his inaugural.
The decision to force the South back was made prior to Sumter. Sumter just sped things up and enabled Lincoln to wave the flag to garner popular support for his aim.
Why did Davis order Sumter reduced? So that it was done on his authority and war not started by some ****able hotheaded extremist, only making his situation all the worse.
Davis ordered the fort reduced in order to unite the southern people and bring the upper south into the war. He needed Virginia, especially, along with the rest of the upper south. He almost succeeded.
Beauregard was in charge at Fort Sumter, and he wasn't going to allow anything to happen that wasn't in accordance with orders from Davis. The idea that anyone could start a war is simply wrong, Ed. Even if some hothead got hold of a cannon and fired it at the fort, that wouldn't have started a war because Beauregard would simply regain control of the artillery piece and send a message over to Anderson explaining what was going on.
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