Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Hal, I understand it is difficult for you to understand... but liars are/were present on both sides of the MAson Dixon Line. Believe it or not I don't believe I've ever noted you purposefully pulling things out of context or twisting words. I might easily have missed something, if I have please let me know and I'll be happy to change my opinion of you. Misconstrue and willfully ignore? Frequently. If you can't or won't deal w/ something you ignore it and then accuse others of refusing to answer you. While a bit contemptable I wouldn't call that lying. So no, I don't think I'd call you a liar.
Did those Officers give true faith and honor to those Unionists who stayed in the South? Did they honor that minority? I can see you have never sworn an oath nor hold an oath to mean much.
Galvanized Yankees... how can it be treason or contemptible if they switched to the side attempting to uphold the Constitution and the law? I don't consider them any less brave or courageous than their Confederate equivelant. From my reading most gave good service, and few against the CS. You might think them less than honorable, I don't.
The oath I took was a little different, though not much, from that of Mr Davis:
I, ____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
I still honor those officers and respect those appointed over me. If a Captain, or an NCO sent in his stead, walked through my door right now and said "SrA you're needed. Report for duty tommorow." I guess I would panic for a few minutes; make certain it wasn't a mistake then shave, get a haircut, dig out my uniform and do my duty. Would I follow their orders if the need arose? I have no doubt about it. I think the same is true of most Veterans. I enlisted for four years & served five due to a mandatory extension. I then joined the USAFR as an IMA and served on. After I was discharged I filed my DD214 & joined the American Legion. I have fulfilled my obligation to the US military and I continue to serve my community and my country.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
The oath I took was a little different, though not much, from that of Mr Davis:
I, ____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
I still honor those officers and respect those appointed over me. If a Captain, or an NCO sent in his stead, walked through my door right now and said "SrA you're needed. Report for duty tommorow." I guess I would panic for a few minutes; make certain it wasn't a mistake then shave, get a haircut, dig out my uniform and do my duty. Would I follow their orders if the need arose? I have no doubt about it. I think the same is true of most Veterans. I enlisted for four years & served five due to a mandatory extension. I then joined the USAFR as an IMA and served on. After I was discharged I filed my DD214 & joined the American Legion. I have fulfilled my obligation to the US military and I continue to serve my community and my country.
I feel as you do, Shane, that the oath I took has no expiration date--that's a personal opinion about a moral requirement; however, if we want to talk about legal requirements, then legally speaking Jefferson Davis was no longer bound by the oath he took as a West Point cadet or as a military officer or as Secretary of War. Now it gets a bit problematical when we consider his oath of office as a senator, since he resigned his seat in the Senate in order to join the opposition to the United States.
R. E. Lee is a bit more problematical, since he accepted a commission from Virginia before his resignation took effect.
Sorry Cash but I have always felt it a little too convenient that an officer could resign as he pleased to either run away from his duty or to immedietly turn upon his men. Some of those "officers" resigned to accept the surrender of their post and its garrison.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God. “ As I see it he betrayed that one as well.
I read something the other day that I was suprised at, I was unawre the PG Bueragard was recruiting military men to the Southern Cause as early as 1859. His men enjoyed calling him "Polecat" and he was approached in 1859...
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Sorry Cash but I have always felt it a little too convenient that an officer could resign as he pleased to either run away from his duty or to immedietly turn upon his men. Some of those "officers" resigned to accept the surrender of their post and its garrison.
But that doesn't apply to Davis and his West Point oath, his Army oath, or his Secretary of War oath. As I said, his oath as a senator is problematical, since he resigned from the Senate to join Mississippi in the rebellion. If we're going to have some kind of legal standard, then the previous oaths would not bind him legally, since he had long ago vacated those offices. The Senate oath, however, might be different.
Point taken... no pun intended. This must shock a few of our esteemed brethern from the other side of the aisle. As I said on another thread if I need a legal defence I would be asking you.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Are you confusing General Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard with
General Camille Armand Jules Marie, Prince de Polignac ("Prince Polecat")?
Or did they call all them long-named Frenchies "Polecat"?
__________________ -
"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt
Ancestors in USA Army: 6th IA Inf, 11th IL Cav, 1st AL Cav; 122nd NY Inf; 6th MI Cav; 35th MA Inf; 100th IL Inf; 1st CO Inf/Cav; 22nd IN Inf
Beauragard recruited Polignac to the Confederate cause in 1859.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Shane,
Regarding your oath, which I applaud you for taking seriously and faithfully, and it's last statement, "so help me God."
What happens when an obedient and faithful officer/recruit has to swear his/her allegiance to a Constitution which prohibits legally via Constitutional ammendment through a Supreme Court, the part of the oath, "so help me God."?
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Hal, I understand it is difficult for you to understand... but liars are/were present on both sides of the MAson Dixon Line. Believe it or not I don't believe I've ever noted you purposefully pulling things out of context or twisting words. I might easily have missed something, if I have please let me know and I'll be happy to change my opinion of you.
I hope at least one thing is clear -- I am not concerned about what your opinion of me might be.
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Misconstrue and willfully ignore? Frequently.
Yes. You do. Frequently.
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If you can't or won't deal w/ something you ignore it and then accuse others of refusing to answer you. While a bit contemptable I wouldn't call that lying. So no, I don't think I'd call you a liar.
Good. I'm glad you at least aren't calling me a liar.
I know you hate it when I don't let you get away with making some of your unfounded statements. But I really can't help it. You know what they say about flies and ... oh, never mind.
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Did those Officers give true faith and honor to those Unionists who stayed in the South? Did they honor that minority? I can see you have never sworn an oath nor hold an oath to mean much.
Is this another dodge?
It is starting to appear that way...
And Shane, you shouldn't be so smug and presumtuous about stuff you know less than nothing about -- concerning me.
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Galvanized Yankees... how can it be treason or contemptible if they switched to the side attempting to uphold the Constitution and the law?
As I thought.
You do not care that they violated an oath or turned against those they had sworn to defend.
Your principle is a one-way street. A double standard. One standard for your side, one for the other side. You hate them because they are the other guy, and not your guy.
Lee, Davis etc did exactly what you are claiming my ancestors did. They switched to the side they believed was attempting to uphold the Constitution and the law.
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I don't consider them any less brave or courageous than their Confederate equivelant. From my reading most gave good service, and few against the CS. You might think them less than honorable, I don't.
I don't think them one way or the other. I harbor no faux indignation vertueuse towards anyone that makes a tough decision. Particularly those like my ancestors who saw it as the best way to survive a disease infested POW camp. Noble? Not at all. It was all about survival, comfort and convenience.
For Davis and Lee and the others like them that you detest -- it was about honor, Constitution and virtue.
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