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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #231  
Old 10-21-2005, 05:09 PM
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Bill,
Just read your post 226. I am aware there were negociations in 1864 with Alexander Stephens representing the Confederates, are these the same. I don't know much about them at all. In evaluating Davis's words, I think there are more than three choices. Davis was a war leader, in a worsening situation, facing his countries enemies. These circumstances would have shaped his responses. The crucial point:
Your statement, forgive the paraphase; While the preservation of slavery may have played a part in secession, the experience of fighting the war forged or created a nationalism beyond slavery. I would agree it did in SOME Confederates. However, based on the reception to Cleburne's letter, and to Lee's support for enlisting black soldiers in the CS Army, most decision makers were more wedded to slavery and the racial attitudes that underpinned it, than to independence.

Alabaman, in post 228 you state concisely and clearly the basic thinking espoused by many in these forums. Your statement does have the disadvantage, IMO, of being wrong.
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  #232  
Old 10-21-2005, 05:11 PM
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Ole,

Fuzzies and marshmallows?
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  #233  
Old 10-21-2005, 05:13 PM
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Cedarstripper,

Economic rivalry & sectional differences/hatred would be my humble guesstimate. Slavery was only one of many factors which hastened things.

Sincerely,
Rob Adams
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  #234  
Old 10-21-2005, 06:55 PM
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ole ole is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew mckeon
Ole,

Fuzzies and marshmallows?
What makes you ask that question? You don't know about warm fuzzies and marshmallows? I could possibly say something nice to Bill?

Now I'm going to have to find a dog to kick. Do not suggest that I kick my wife's dog, I have enough problems already. Maybe that yappy little pom across the street.
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  #235  
Old 10-22-2005, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Bill:

Yesterday I started writing you a note literally bursting with warm fuzzies and marshmallows. The second I punched "Post Quick Reply," the site went down.

Could it be that CWT cannot survive my saying something nice to you? As I am not willing to take that chance, I thought that you should at least know that I tried.
Ole

Ole,

Steady on, old chap.

If we start going down that path, I'll find myself saying warm and wistful things about Thad Stevens & David Hunter. You'll find yourself whistling "The Bonnie Blue Flag". We'll be all over the place.

Nevertheless, the thought is appreciated.

Bill
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  #236  
Old 10-22-2005, 06:53 AM
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Bill,

I just had the book, Lee, by Clifford Dowdey, given to me as a gift. The book was first published in 1965. Have you heard of it or read it before?

While I was reading the foreward of the book, I came across this comment when an historian who was commenting on the new material on Lee had come to light, "...that history should be rewritten every twenty-five years. Attitudes change and the writer of history views the past from new perspectives." I tend to agree, simply because new information and documents seem to pop up all the time, but the comment makes a lot of sense to me.

I also saw that Dowdey had written other books on the Confederacy, such as, Bugles Blow No More, Experiment In Rebellion, The Land They Fought For, Death of a Nation, Lee's Last Campaign, and The Seven Days. Several of the titles sound very interesting and I am hoping that I can find some of the other titles.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #237  
Old 10-22-2005, 07:52 AM
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Matthew,

I have been wrong a time or two. No problem. ;-)

What were the core reason(s) for the WBTS in your opinion? Do you suggest the war was fought for slavery abolisment, only?

Regards,
Rob Adams (Alabaman)

Last edited by Alabaman; 10-22-2005 at 08:04 AM. Reason: An additional question was added to save space.
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  #238  
Old 10-22-2005, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Bill,

I just had the book, Lee, by Clifford Dowdey, given to me as a gift. The book was first published in 1965. Have you heard of it or read it before?

While I was reading the foreward of the book, I came across this comment when an historian who was commenting on the new material on Lee had come to light, "...that history should be rewritten every twenty-five years. Attitudes change and the writer of history views the past from new perspectives." I tend to agree, simply because new information and documents seem to pop up all the time, but the comment makes a lot of sense to me.

I also saw that Dowdey had written other books on the Confederacy, such as, Bugles Blow No More, Experiment In Rebellion, The Land They Fought For, Death of a Nation, Lee's Last Campaign, and The Seven Days. Several of the titles sound very interesting and I am hoping that I can find some of the other titles.

Sincerely,
Unionblue


I agree with this statement to a certain extent, especially in the light of new documents, but we have to remember that sometimes attitudes can change in a negative way, and reflect a current political climate, or, as is evident today, bend to political correctness. Revisionism can be a very potent and dangerous thing.

A while back, I received as a gift, Dowdy's, "The History of the Confederacy," but have yet to read it. I have heard that Dowdy may be consided a "Lost Causer" by people of Northern persuasion, but I'm not familiar with him yet. I am told by friends that "Lee," and "Death of a Nation," are very good.


Regards,

John W.
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Last edited by JohnW in E.TN; 10-22-2005 at 10:48 AM.
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  #239  
Old 10-22-2005, 11:04 AM
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Dear Alabaman:
I have been in the wrong so much I've bought a timeshare.

This is my theory. Unlike many on this forum, I can't produce the amount of research and stuff, but it is the product of my reading and studying the Civil War for a long period.

In 1861, the Southern states seceded from the Union. The decision makers may
have felt they had a legal right, but I don't think that influenced their thinking. They certainly felt they had a natural right, like the revolutionary generation, to rebel. Certainly men like Lee felt that way.

Why did they secede? To protect their rights.
Which rights are those? To own slaves
Why was slavery worth secession, and prehaps war?
Because of the central place slavery held in the Southern economy.
Also, because American slavery was race based, with a philosophy of absolute race inferiority of blacks to whites, because to interfere with slavery seemed to violate the order of nature, and to have unknown and dangerous social consequences, that abolitionists, far to the North, would not share.

But the vast majority of the Southern armies were made up of non slaveowners? What stake did they have?
Most of the CS soldiers may have resented the planter class, but many aspired to be part of it. Nearly all the CS soldiers were white, and strongly held to the belief of white superiority, and shared the slaveowners angry and anxiety of "outsider" attempts to interfere with the bedrock reality of their society: white superiority.

Because of concerns about servile revolt, especially as the national debate sharpened, the average Southerner heard less and less that would disagree with this. The range of political debate and opinion in the South narrowed. As the years progressed, especially in the 1850s, these attitudes hardened.

Since the war consisted mostly of Union armies attempting to penetrate the South, regardless of how a Southerner might have felt about slavery, or secession, he certainly would have felt he was defending his homeground against invaders. Lee who had his doubts about both secession and slavery, thought this way.

What about the Northerners?
They fought in 1861 to preserve the federal union established by the Constitution. They felt there was no legal right to secession, and this did shape their response. They felt that the idea of the United States as a functioning reality, as the "last, best hope of mankind," as representative democracy had to be preserved.
What right of the federal union had to be preserved?

The right of the winners of elections to take office, and losers of elections to accept their loss.
And what on what issue did the winner intend to press a policy the losers of the election that they would dislike? The federal control of slavery. Not the abolition of slavery, In 1861, slavery was embedded in the Constitution, and the issue was on "interstate" issues, such as the extension of slavery, or the federal fugitive slave law. The abolition of slavery was called on by people like Garrison, but abolitionists were a minor influence.

Didn't white Northerners share the racism of white Southerners? Yes. But economically and socially, they didn't need it, the way a slaveholding society did. They could change their behavior.

Bill Torrens started a very interesting thread about a Northern "philosophy of force" I think he was on to something.
Many Northerners felt contempt for Southerners as backwards, violent and cruel, a society whose concerns were not valid. These attitudes influenced the willingness of Northerners to prosecute the war and impose their "superior values" onthe South. While abolitionists weren't a major force, politically, their propaganda had a role in shaping Northern beliefs about the South. Northern society which was more urbanized and industrialized, put a greater value on conformity than Southern society.

As the war progressed, growing bloodier and bloodier, the stakes grew higher and higher. Among Northerners came the great epiphany:
Not only was slavery wrong, it was what was wrong with the South. Slavery shaped the attitudes of the ruling class, produced beliefs incompatible with true democracy. Slavery was cruel and backward and made society cruel and backward. Pull slavery out by its root, and the way ahead was clear.
The cost of the war demanded nothing less than the complete reform of the South.

Among some Confederates, like Cleburne, Lee and others, argued that, for the South to live as an independent country, gain foreign recognition, and use its strength and resources the most effective way possible, that slavery would have to be reformed, reduced, weakened and otherwise interfered with. They were not heeded. Partly it was because other decision makers didn't agree with them(indeed as Howell Cobb said, they couldn't, without removing the rationale for their revolution), or because it just wouldn't produce victory.

I'm not a fast writer, and I've got to go now. This is a lot of what I think.
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  #240  
Old 10-22-2005, 01:21 PM
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Back. Appalled by how much I've written.
Alabaman you asked a direct question, WBTS because abolishing slavery? No
Preserving the Union(North), Southern Independence(South). But slavery was behind secession, and destroying slavery became the means of preserving the Union.
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