Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
My standards are pretty simple. And I am pretty sure you would have to ask me to find out what they are instead of assuming that they will NEVER be met.
The fact of the matter is, the number 'thousands' and 'tens of thousands' have been stated as to the number of civilians killed in Sherman's march to the sea.
Where do the numbers come from? What source do you give for such figures? And please, how many family bloodlines were wiped out by all this supposed killing? A statement is not proof, even when it is delivered in an emotional way.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Mobileboy,
I have seen fit to answer the post that you refer, because I know it to be true. One cannot refute truth, no matter how hard one tries. As for being addictive, well, it is, and it isn't. Like my idol Mosby, I choose my battles wisely, and also like Mosby, I will never surrender, try as some may, they can not get the better of me, when what I 'fight' for, is for an ideal, and I know it to be true. Educational? I suppose you could say that, after a fashion. However, I believe that I have learned some things that most 'history' books don't seem to adhere to. There were two sides to this conflict, just as there are two sides to everything.
So, now, I usually chime in on something that stirs my soul, which was quite a bit, at one time. Now, I sit back and watch some of the answers given and I have to chuckle at just what some believe. I do not argue the point anymore, for it is pointless. Some issues have very good debating points, others, are mere excuses
for arguements sake. I have no doubt that Lee was a better General, in that he was better with what he had, than Grant.........period. Even I, could lead an army to victory if I had twice the men and an over abundance of material and food, to the others, practically nothing. Where is the intelligence in that?
Lee was the better general. Possibly. Maybe even true. But then I have to think about who surrendered to whom?
Yes. Overwhelming odds -- men, equipment, food, arms. "Lost Cause." One was victorious, the other wasn't. Explain it all away and it remains that one was victorious and the other wasn't.
It doesn't detract from Lee. He simply played out the hand he was dealt. It was not the winning hand. Grant did his job. Was he a great general? Did he out-general Lee? We can argue about that for a long, long time. In the end, it wasn't Grant who surrendered his army.
If you can't run with the big dogs, you'd best stay on the porch.
"My mother was one of the bravest women of the Confederate period, and none passed through more trying ordeals than she did.
But she did her noblest through it all and reared a large family of children on what it would seem was practically nothing. I was almost too young to recall very much of the war, but one thing stands out vividly in my mind and it was when Sherman made his awful raid on South Carolina.
We had sought refuge for a day or so in my mothers old home when news of his approach was learned of. Grandmother was glad to have us, although she said she knew not how to protect her own home. We sat terrified and soon a cloud of dust warned us that the enemy was near. There was nothing to do but sit and pray. Some precious things had been hidden, but everything was at their mercy.
We all sat hovered in grandmother's room and soon men were all over the house, plundering and breaking up and bringing about destruction in general. We were all made to get up for they imagined we were sitting on t hings to hide them. all the feather beds and pillows were carried out and cut open and a regular snow storm seemed on hand as the wind blew it about. All bedding was taken; dishes, all such pretty china was smashed, and pictures cut to pieces.
The stock was all taken and the pretty tame turkeys and chickens were caught. A soldier came in with a fine fryer and said to grandmother, "Well it does seem a shame to take every single one--you have this one for dinner". She thanked him with streaming eyes, for she had not had a mouthful to eat that day, and with everything gone from the smokehouse, all the meat, syrup, flour and poatatoes, we were wondering if we were going to perish. All destruction that could be done was accomplished and they must have been ready to depart.
The soldier told grandmother to go on about cooking the chicken and sent in some lard to to fry it in. The soldiers seemed to be ready to go on their march and, oh, how thankful we were. How good the chicken smelt, and we were about to venture out. The apparently kind soldier suddenly stepped in the kitchen and smilingly said "Did you cook the chicken?" "Yes," said grandmother, "and I gratefully thank you for it. My poor grandchildren are so hungry." The soldier said, "And I gratefully thank you for it," and seizing the pan, ran out, saying, "I sure got my dinner cooked in a sly way." To us children this seemed the most awful act of the war.
While they were rummaging, mother outwitted one soldier. One seemed less rude and she asked him to save for her a suit of clothes she had woven and made for her father. "That I will, " he said. He rolled it up and put it up the chimney. Later mother suspected he was saving it for himself and got it down and hid it under some pieces of bed they had broken up, so it was really saved.
No one can imagine that awful night we passed through, for we kept fearing they would come back. We had practically nothing to eat--everything gone from the plentiful smokehouse, cows and all stock gone. How the little ones missed the good milk at supper time. The syrup had dirt stirred up in it. A few poatatoes were picked up and here and there a little of something dropped, so we fared on this for a few days.
Some faithful slaves in pretending to help get for the soldiers were really hiding for us, so later they produced this when they were certain the enemy would not come back and punish them."
"Recollections and Reminiscences" (Mrs. Orrie Sease Quattlebaum)
Charleston, S.C. The Mills House, with adjacent ruins.
"Yes, you can lose somebody overnight, yes, your whole life can be turned upside down. Life is short. It can come and go like a feather in the wind." ~Shania Twain~
I am delighted by the fact that you admire Mosby, that he is your idol and that in his tradition of fighting for an 'ideal'. So I know you will trust him and take his word, since you hold him in such high esteem.
"The South went to war on account of slavery,...South Carolina went to war as she said in her secession proclamation, because slavery would not be secure under Lincoln,...don't you think South Carolina ought to know why it went to war?"
Quote by John Singleton Mosby, leader of Mosby's Rangers.
You know, I honestly believe him and admire him for speaking his mind.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Anyone know the total losses of men in both armies when Lee was in charge of the ANV and Grant was in charge of the AOP?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
So no sources handy on the number of civilians killed by Union troops during the march to the sea?
Any on the number of civilians killed by Union forces and their march through South Carolina?
Sincerely,
Unionblue
PS Thea, I'll be happy to look up any site or souce you name and get back to you.
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Ole,
The fact that was one victorious and one wasn't is irrelevant when discussing military aptitude.Rommel is widely acclaimed as the Desert Fox.He is one of the most reknown commanders of WW2.His forces lost in North Africa but most of the world doesn't think it was because of him personally being outclassed by his opposition.There are factors believe it or not into who wins a battle other than the commanders.I can't believe I even have to say that.If they were two somewhat equal forces then you'd have a point.In football the New Orleans would beat any high school team in America.Only a dufus (not calling you one)would conclude that the Saints had the best coach because they won.If one doesn't possess the mental aptitude to look at the whole picture and all they can cling to is well we won that makes a pretty good case that in itself that Lee was better.What exactly is "lost cause "about bringing up facts?If you want to get into the facts of the war those outnumbered outsupplied Confederate men man for man killed many more Union troops than vica-verca.Why did Grant order rations for thousands of men if the Confederates were well-supplied.That would make no sense unless you erroneously believe Grant in 1865 had this private desire to himself give fake evidence for the benefit of future lost cause historians.That would lead me to believe that man for man the Confederate men were in no way inferior to Union men, and almost 100,000 more men in blue died.Show me the Confederate inferiority there.So stating the facts that Confederate forces were outsupplied,outgunned, and outmanned is hardly lost cause mythology.It is stating the obvious conditions as even Northern historians saw them.Do you suggest that the Confederate troops outnumbered the Union troops?Do you suggest that the Confederate troops were better supplied than the Union?I didn't think so.
Regards,
Ashley
So no sources handy on the number of civilians killed by Union troops during the march to the sea?
Neil:
As I stated in my previous posting, I've read various accounts of the number of civilians killed throughout South Carolina and Georgia, but I was most curious to know what others thought. A thousand seems a trifling sum, considering that 'civilians' were the target of Sherman's army. In any event Neil, I consider the death of even one innocent civilian to be a senseless tragedy, and worth mentioning.
As for England, it is a never-ending oasis of historical wonders, beautiful country-side, and unabashed charm. There is history at every corner and I find myself standing outside almost every building in town, studying and admiring it's architecture - it's still quite easy to spot the Canadian!
My plan for next summer is to tour the Uk by bus and then I will broaden my horizens and see parts of Europe that have now been opened up to me without flying. I love the English people - they're charming, friendly, and always helpful when I find myself in a jam, which happens frequently; but it is a strange feeling to now be considered the one with the 'odd accent.'
I live quite close to the most incredible park, and although I no longer have my dog to accompany me on my morning treks, I find myself in the midst of exotic rambling vines, exquisite ferns/wildflowers, and green meadows that seem to go on forever. The weather is interchangeable, which I love, and the fact that I've finished battling snow and ice storms for a very long time makes me smile even now, as it ususally starts to snow in Southern Ontario around the 1st of November!
Well, I could go on forever about the attractions of England but needless to say, I'm thrilled to be here and I do consider it very much my second home - but I'll always be a Canadian first.
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