Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Correct while the North wanted these measures to increase the productivity of Northern industrialization.
And what's wrong with an industrialized society based on free labor?
Quote:
Who was it counterproductive to?It wasn't counterproductive to the South in 1860.
Yes it was counterproductive to the south. I have already given the railroad example. Their lack of industry forced them to rely on foreign imports through blockade running during the war.
The northern states were moving forward into the modern world while the south wished to stay in a Medieval state of agricultural serfdom.
Quote:
Why is the South wrong when both sides had self-interest in mind?
Would you rather live in a free labor society or a slave one?
Quote:
Why should the Southern vision of the nation have to to conform to the Northern vision?
Would you like to live your life as a slave?
The Fifth Amendment:
"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
The southern planters saw slaves as nothing more than property but as Lincoln said he recognized that they were human and were being denied their liberty.
Quote:
A lot of the resentment of these measures had to do with the fact that the government spent far more money in the North.
Do you have numbers and sources for this?
Quote:
Didn't Southerners work really hard to admit Kansas as a slave state?Did they want California admitted as a free state?Did they wish to purchase Cuba?
Again all 3 of these examples have to do with slavery. What other rights or legislation or constitutional obligations were being denied the south that aren't related to slavery?
Quote:
In theory yes but in practice Southerners were constantly enraged that the fugitive slave law was basically ignored by many Northerners.
Should it really surprise you that others ignored a law forcing people back into a state of slavery?
Quote:
That was a big point of contention with Southerners that Northerners ignored their obligation under the law to hurt their interest.
Again the slavery issue arises.
Quote:
That fact had a lot to do with secession since many felt the North wasn't exactly in accordance with their constitutional obligations.
What obligations besides those related to slavery was the north not obligating?
The CSA, whatever else it hoped to achieve, meant to preserve slavery.
Perpetual bondage for 4 out of 10 Southerners. No hope, no progress, no education, no rights, not for you, and not for your children. Or their children. Or ever.
The right to secede was almost universally recognized among the people of the union.
That is hawgwash.
The State of Maine certainly didn't recognize this mythical right of unilateral secession:
[begin quote]
State of Maine
Resolves in favor of harmony and union
Resolved, That we the people of the State of Maine devotedly cherish the constitution and laws of the United States, and have ever been willing to assist in maintaining the National Union, and to respect faithfully the rights of all its members.
Resolved, That in the present attempt to coerce the government of the United States, and the will of the majority of the people thereof, to the will of the minority, by treason most foul, and rebellion the most unjustifiable, it is the right and the duty of the state to proffer to the national government for its own maintenance and for the suppression of this treason and rebellion. all the means and resources which it can command.
Resolved, That while as a member of the family of the states, we are ever ready to review our course in reference to any seeming infringement of the rights of sister states, still we can never so far forget the pride of our sovereignty, or the dignity of our manhood, as to hold parley with treason or with traitors.
Resolved, That whenever we shall see the sentiment of patriotism and devotion to American liberty manifested in the slave-holding states, we will vie with such states in the restoration of harmony, and will tender to such, every fraternal concession consistent with the security of our own citizens.
Resolved, That it is our right and our solemn purpose, with "our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor," to defend to the last our Federal Government, and the strength and the glory of our national capitol, by whatever hands assailed,as the only hope of our own and of the world's freedom and progress.
[end quote]
Neither did the State of Minnesota:
[begin quote]
Joint Resolutions of the Legislature of the State of Minnesota, on the state of the Union. Adopted January 22, 1861.
1. Resolved, That one of the vital and necessary principles which form the basis of all free governments, is that the constitutional majority must always rule. And therefore, the right of the people of any State to withdraw from the Union, thereby hazarding the liberties and happiness of the millions comprising this Confederacy, can never be acknowledged by us under any circumstances.
We regard secession upon the part of any State as amounting directly to revolution, and precipitating civil war with all its sad train of consequences.
2. Resolved, That the people of the State of Minnesota re-iterate their unalterable devotion to the Constitution of the United States, and that if its provisions are strictly observed, it will, in its own words, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessing of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
3. Resolved, That ABRAHAM LINCOLN and HANNIBAL HAMLIN, having been constitutionally and legally elected President and Vice President of the United States, at a general election fully and freely participated in, on the same day, by the people of every State of the Union, South as well as North, that any attempt to dissolve or destroy the Union on account thereof, is without excuse or justification, and should receive the condemnation of every patriot in the land.
4. Resolved, That we have heard with astonishment and indignation of the recent outrages perpetrated at Charleston, South Carolina, by firing upon an American steamer, sailing under the flag of our country, and that we expect of the General Government the strongest and most vigorous effort to assert its supremacy, and to check the work of rebellion and treason. Fully impressed with our duty to make every possible effort to uphold the Union, and to maintain the authority of the General Government, we hereby tender to the President of the United States, for that purpose, through the Governor of this State, aid in men and money, to the extent of our ability.
When one or more States erect the standard of disunion, and place themselves in military array against the Government bequeathed to us by our ancestors, we can discover no other honorable or patriotic resource than to test, both on land and on ocean, the full strength of the Federal authority under our National Flag.
5. Resolved, That we declare to each State of this Union our sincere desire to secure a renewal of that fraternal feeling which ought always to exist between citizens of a common country, and which distinguished the history of the nation for more than half a century. Especially do we express to those patriotic citizens of the Southern States, who have nobly and manfully exerted their utmost effort to prevent the catastrophe of dissolution, our sincere gratitude and highest admiration.
6. Resolved, That the most sincere thanks of the nation are justly due to that distinguished patriot and veteran, Lt. General Winfield Scott for the prompt and decisive steps he has taken to stay the tide of revolution, and for the determined spirit he has evinced in maintaining the honor of our Government.
7. Resolved, That we never will consent or submit to the obstruction of the free navigation of the Mississippi river, from its source to its mouth, by any power hostile to the Federal Government.
8. Resolved, That the Governor of this State is hereby requested to transmit a copy of these resolutions to the President of the United States, to Lt. General Winfield Scott, and to each of our Senators and Representatives in the Congress of the United States, and to the Governors of the several States.
IGNATIUS DONNELLY,
President of the Senate.
JARED BENSON,
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
[end quote]
Neither did the State of New York:
[begin quote]
Concurrent Resolutions tendering aid to the President of the United States in support of the Constitution and the Union
STATE OF, NEW YORK.
In Assembly, Jan. 11, 1861.
Whereas, Treason, as defined by the Constitution of the United States, exists in one or more of the States of this Confederacy, and
Whereas, the insurgent State of South Carolina after seizing the Post Office, Custom House, Moneys and Fortifications of the Federal Government, has, by firing into a vessel ordered by the Government to convey troops and provisions to Fort Sumter, virtually declared war; and whereas, the forts and property of the United States Government in Georgia, Alabama and Louisiana, have been unlawfully seized with hostile intentions; and whereas, further, Senators in Congress avow and maintain their treasonable acts; therefore
Resolved, (If the Senate concur,) That the Legislature of New York, profoundly impressed with the value of the Union, and determined to preserve it unimpaired, hail with joy the recent firm, dignified and patriotic Special Message of the President of the United States, and that we tender to him, through the Chief Magistrate of our own State, whatever aid in men and money he may require to enable him to enforce the laws and upheld the authority of the Federal Government. And that in defence of "the more perfect Union," which has conferred prosperity and happiness upon the American people, renewing the pledge given and redeemed by our Fathers, we are ready to devote "our fortunes, our lives, and our sacred honor" in upholding, the Union and the Constitution.
Resolved, (If the Senate concur,) That the Union-loving Representatives and Citizens of Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, Missouri and Tennessee, who labor with devoted courage and patriotism to withhold their States from the vortex of Secession, are entitled to the gratitude and admiration of the whole people.
Resolved, (If the Senate concur,) That the Governor be respectfully requested to forward, forthwith, copies of the foregoing resolutions to the President of the Nation, and the Governors of all the States of the Union.
The preceding Preamble and Resolutions were duly passed.
By order. H.A. RISLEY, Clerk.
In Senate, January 11, 1861. The preceding Preamble and Resolutions were duly passed.
By order. JAMES TERWILLIGER, Clerk.
[end quote]
Joint Resolutions in relation to the Union of the States.
Whereas, the people of New Jersey, conforming to the opinion of "the Father of his Country," consider the unity of the government, which constitutes the people of the United States one people, a main pillar in the edifice of their independence, the support of their tranquility at home and peace abroad, of their prosperity, and of that liberty which they so highly prize; and properly estimating the immense value of their National Union to their individual happiness, they cherish a cordial, habitual and immovable attachment to it as the palladium of their political safety and prosperity---therefore,
1. Be it resolved by the Senate and General Assembly Of the State of New Jersey, That it is the duty of every good citizen, in all suitable and proper ways, to stand by and sustain the Union of the States as transmitted to us by our fathers.
2. And be it resolved, That the government of the United States is a national government, and the Union it was designed to perfect is not a mere compact or league; and that the constitution was adopted in a spirit of mutual compromise and concession by the people of the United States, and can only be preserved by the constant recognition of that spirit.
3. And be it resolved, That however undoubted way be the right of the general government to maintain its authority and enforce its laws over all parts of the country, it is equally certain that forbearance and compromise are indispensable at this crisis to the perpetuity of the Union, and that it is the dictate of reason, wisdom and patriotism peacefully to adjust whatever differences exist between the different sections of our country.
4. And be it resolved, That the resolutions and propositions submitted to the Senate of the United States by the Hon. John J. Crittenden of Ky., for the compromise of the questions in dispute between the eople of the Northern and of the Southern States, or any other constitutional method that will permanently settle the question of slavery, will be acceptable to the people of the State of New Jersey, and the Senators and Representatives in Congress from Now Jersey be requested and earnestly alleged to support those resolutions and propositions.
5. And be it resolved, That as the Union of the States is in imminent danger, unless the remedies before suggested be speedily adopted, then, as a last resort, the State of New Jersey hereby makes application, according to the terms of the constitution, of the Congress of the United States to call a convention (of the States) to propose amendments to said constitution.
6. And be it resolved, That such of the States as have in force laws which interfere with the constitutional rights of citizens of the other States, either in regard to their persons or property, or which militate against, the just construction of that part of the constitution that provides that "the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States," are earnestly urged and requested, for the sake of peace and the Union, to repeal all such laws.
7. And be it resolved, That his Excellency Charles S. Olden, Peter D. Yroom Robert F. Stockton Benjamin Williamson, Joseph F. Randolph, Frederick T. Frelinghuysen, Rodman M. Price, William C. Alexander, and Thomas J. Stryker be appointed commissioners to confeer with Congress and our sister States, and urge upon them the importance of carrying into effect the principles and objects of the foregoing resolutions.
8. And be it resolved, That the commissioners above named, in addition to their other powers, be authorized to meet with those now or hereafter to be appointed by our sister State of Virginia, and such commissioners of other states as have been, or may be hereafter appointed, to meet at Washington on the fourth day of February next.
9. And be it resolved, That copies of the foregoing resolutions be sent to the President of the Senate and Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States, and to the Senators and Representatives in Congress from New Jersey, and to the Governors of the several States.
Senate of New Jersey, January 24, 1861
These resolutions having been three times read and compared in the Senate,
Resolved, That the same do pass.
By order of the Senate,
EDMUND PERRY, President.
In the House of Assembly, January 25, 1861
These resolutions having been three times read and compared in the House of Assembly,
Resolved, That the same do pass.
By order of the House of Assembly,
F.H. TEESE, Speaker.
Approved, January 29, 1861.
CHARLES S. OLDEN, Governor.
[end quote]
Neither did the State of Ohio:
[begin quote]
Joint Resolutions of the General Assembly of the State of Ohio, passed January 12, 1861.
RESOLVED by the General Assembly of the State of Ohio, as follows:
1. That the people of Ohio, believing that the preservation of the Unity of Government that constitutes the American people one people, is essential to the support of their tranquility at home, of their peace abroad, of their safety, of their prosperity, and of that very liberty which they so highly prize, are firmly and ardently attached to the National Constitution and the Union of the States.
2. That the General Government cannot permit the secession of any State without violating the obligations by which it is bound, under the compact, to the other States and to every citizen of the United States.
3. That, whilst the constitutional rights of every State in the Union should be preserved inviolate, the powers and authority of the National Government must be maintained, and the laws of Congress faithfully enforced, in every State and Territory, until repealed by Congress or adjudged to be unconstitutional by the proper ,judicial tribunal; and all attempts by State authorities to nullify the Constitution of the United States or the laws of the Federal Government, or to resist the execution thereof, are revolutionary in their character, and tend to the disruption of the best and wisest system of government in the world.
4. That the people of Ohio are inflexibly opposed to intermeddling with the internal affairs and domestic relations of the other States of the Union; in the same manner and to the same extent as they are opposed to any interference by the people of other States with their domestic concerns.
5. That it is the will and purpose of the people of Ohio to fulfil, in good faith, all their obligations under the Constitution of the United States, according to the spirit and intent thereof; and they demand the faithful discharge of the same duty by every State in the Union; and thus, as far as may be, to insure tranquility between the State of Ohio and the other States.
6. That it is incumbent upon any States having enactments on their statute books, conflicting with or rendering less efficient the Constitution or laws of the United States, to repeal them: and it is equally incumbent upon the General Government and the several States to secure to every citizen of the Union his rights in every State under that provision of the Constitution which guarantees to the citizens of each State all the privileges and immunities of the citizens of the several States, and thus inspire and restore confidence and a spirit of fraternal feeling between the different States of the Union.
7. That the Union loving citizens of those States who have labored, and still labor with devotional courage and patriotism, to withhold their States from the vortex of secession, are entitled to the admiration and gratitude of the whole American people.
8. That we hail with joy, the recent firm, dignified and patriotic special message of the President of the United States, and that the entire power and resources of Ohio, are hereby pledged whenever necessary and demanded, for the maintenance under strict subordination to the civil authority, of the Constitution and Laws of the General Government, by whomsoever administered.
9. That the Governor be requested to forward, forthwith, copies of the foregoing resolutions to the President of the nation, and to the Governors of all the States of the Union, and to each of the Senators and Representatives in Congress from this State, to be by them presented to each branch of the National Legislature.
ATTEST:
R. C. PARSONS,
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
R. C. KIRK,
President of the Senate.
[end quote]
And neither did the State of Pennsylvania:
[begin quote]
Resolutions
Adopted by the Legislature of Pennsylvania, Jan. 24, 1861
Joint Resolutions relative to the maintenance of the Constitution and the Union.
WHEREAS, A Convention of delegates assembled in the city of Charleston, in the State of South Carolina, did on the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty, adopt an ordinance entitled "An ordinance to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her, under the compact, entitled the Constitution of the United States of America," whereby it is declared that the said Union is dissolved:
AND WHEREAS, It becomes the duty or the people of Pennsylvania, through their representatives in this General Assembly, to make known what they consider to be the objects sought, and the obligations and duties imposed by the Constitution; be it therefore,
Resolved, By the Senate and House of Representatives of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, In General Assembly met, and it is hereby resolved, That the Constitution of the United States of America, was ordained and established as set forth in its preamble, by the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and their posterity, and if the people of any State in this Union, are not in the fall enjoyment of all the benefits intended to be secured to them by the said Constitution, if their rights under it are disregarded, their tranquility disturbed, their prosperity retarded, or their liberties imperiled by the people of any other State, full and adequate redress can, and ought to be provided for such grievances, through the action of Congress, and other proper departments of the National Government.
2. Resolved, That the people of Pennsylvania, entertain and desire to cherish "the most fraternal sentiments for their brethren of other States, and are ready now, as they have ever been, to co-operate in all measures needful for their welfare, security and happiness, under the Constitution which makes us one people. That while they cannot surrender their love of liberty inherited from the founders of their State, sealed with the blood of the Revolution, and witnessed in the history of their legislation, and while they claim the observance of all their rights under the Constitution, they nevertheless maintain now, as they have ever done, the Constitutional rights of the people of the slaveholding States, to the uninterrupted enjoyment of their own domestic institutions.
3. Resolved, That we adopt the sentiment and language of President Andrew Jackson, expressed in his message to Congress, on the sixteenth day of January, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-three: "That the right of the people of a single State, to absolve themselves at will, and without the consent of the other States, from their most solemn obligations, and hazard the liberties and happiness of the millions composing this Union, cannot be acknowledged; and that such authority is utterly repugnant, both to the principles upon which the general government is constituted, and the objects which it was expressly formed to attain."
4. Resolved, That the Constitution of the United States America, contains all tile powers necessary to the maintenance of its authority,. and it is the solemn and most imperative duty of the government, to adopt and carry into effect whatever measures may be necessary to that end, and the faith and the power of Pennsylvania, are hereby pledged to the support of such measures, in any manner, and to any extent that may be required of her, by the constituted authorities of the United States.
5. Resolved, That all plots, conspiracies and warlike demonstrations against the United States, in any section of the country, are treasonable in their character, and whatever power of the government is necessary to their suppression, should be applied to that purpose without hesitation or delay.
6. Resolved, That the Governor be, and be is hereby requested to transmit a copy of these Resolutions to the President of the United States, properly attested, under the Great Seal of the Commonwealth, and like attested copies to the Governors of the several States of this Union, and also to our Senators and Representatives in Congress, who are hereby requested to present the same to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States.
(Signed.) E.W. Davis
Speaker of the House of Representatives
(Signed.) ROBT. M. PALMER
Speaker of the Senate
Approved --- The twenty-fourth day of January, Anno Domini, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one.
(Signed.) A.G. CURTIN
[end quote]
As pointed out a few months ago, Both Lincoln and Douglas denied the existence of this mythical right to unilateral secession. In his book, Northern Editorials on Secession, Howard C. Perkins tells us that Northern editors did discuss the possibility that secession might be a constitutional right, but as he says, at the end of about a six-week time, between the election and the secession of South Carolina, "they concluded by denying the right in toto." [Howard C. Perkins, Northern Editorials on Secession, Vol 1, p. 19]
Chapter IV Perkins' book is titled, "SECESSION: RIGHT OR REVOLUTION?" and deals with editorials specifically discussing whether or not secession is a right. There are nineteen editorials in this chapter.
Here's what they tell us:
1. CAN A STATE CONSTITUTIONALLY SECEDE? Dubuque Herald, November 11, 1860:
"A Government is not a corporation whose existence is limited by a fixed period of time, nor does it provide a means for its own dissolution. The Constitution of the United States provides that it may be amended, and prescribes how this may be done, but it does not, as it exists now, contemplate its own destruction, nor a dissolution of the Government of which it is the living evidence. Constitutionally, there can be no such thing as secession of a State from the Union."
2. PEACEABLE SECESSION AN ABSURDITY New York Evening Post, November 12, 1860:
"A more monstrous and absurd doctrine than that of the right of any state at its pleasure to secede from the Union has never been put forth."
3. SECESSION Bangor Daily Union, November 13, 1860:
"The Union of Maine with South Carolina rests and depends for its continuance on the free consent and will of the sovereign people of each. When that consent and will is withdrawn on either part, their Union is gone, and no power exterior to the withdrawing can ever restore it. A sovereign state may be conquered and held as a subject province; but no aggregation of power can ever force or compel it to be a co-sovereign and co-equal member of the American Union."
4. THE COMMOTION AT THE SOUTH Brooklyn Daily Eagle, November 13, 1860:
"While we see no real cause for secession on the part of the South, should any states attempt it there is nothing to be done but let them go. To hold any state by force of arms and compel it to remain attached to a confederacy it ceased to respect or trust in and obey a government it despised, would be to convert our government into a sanguinary and odious despotism."
5. THE RIGHT OF SECESSION Cincinnati Daily Commercial, November 14, 1860:
"This extreme doctrine of Mr. CALHOUN has hitherto found little favor among American statesmen or parties. The test to which it came near being subjected, in 1832, rather served to strengthen the opposite doctrine of Federal supremacy, than to give weight to the nullification side. ... While three-fourths of the States are required to amend the Constitution in the smallest particular, the government which it founds may be dissolved, and the Constitution in effect abolished by the act of the smallest member. The right of secession, like the right of nullification, implies that each State has a veto upon all the others. What kind of a confederacy is that, in which a single member rules the majority, under penalty of dissolving the concern? How can treaties be made with foreign powers be valid, if each State has the right to reject, or refuse to be bound by them? On this hypothesis, foreign governments would have to negotiate with each of the United States separately. In short, the doctrine of secession not only violates the majority principle, on which our whole institutions rest, but it is incompatible with the existence of any national government whatever. If the right of secession exists, a federal government having any of the attributes of sovereignty, does not exist, and vice versa."
6. THE RIGHT OF SECESSION Daily Boston Traveller, November 16, 1860:
"No state can legally leave the Union. What is called 'the right of secession' has no existence."
7. THE RIGHT OF STATES TO SECEDE New York Daily News, November 16, 1860:
"No decree of a Court can dissolve the States as it can a Corporation. The only power is with the States themselves, and a State once a member of the Confederacy cannot secede without the consent of the others--the majority must rule. If there was any other power to decree the dissolution of the Union, it should be left to that power; but there is none. The General Government cannot coerce a Territory to become a member of the Confederacy. But once having signed the compact and become a member of the Union, it cannot withdraw without the consent of the other members.
"If one State has a right to withdraw, all may withdraw; and we should have loss of name, loss of national existence, civil war, servile war, loss of liberty, and, ultimately, the subjugation and overthrow of the most glorious Republic which ever existed. ... The compact of these States is binding upon all, and the man who attempts to violate it will be responsible to future generations for the misery which his acts produce."
8. THE RIGHT TO SECEDE Davenport Democrat and News, November 17, 1860:
"We are yet of the opinion that there will be secession on the part of some of the Southern States, but we cannot yet clearly discover how that 'peaceable se[ce]ssion' which is so much talked of, can be accomplished. It will be difficult to secede without nullification, and with it civil war must ensue. Others view the matter differently, but we can see nothing but union or fight, and we fear the latter will be the ruinous alternative."
9. STATE RIGHTS AND THE CONSTITUTION Providence Evening Press, November 17, 1860:
"It may be an unpopular proceeding to maintain that right, at a time when it is invoked to support a grievous wrong; but this shall not deter us from upholding the principle at the moment that its attempted perversion, by withdrawing it from its abstract position, gives it especial interest. We conceive that by manifesting our loyalty to the right so far as it exists, we give emphasis to our condemnation of the gross offences committed under its cloak."
10. THE SECESSION THEORY Madison Wisconsin Daily State Journal, November 17, 1860:
"The particular point which is now most discussed, is the right of a State to withdraw from the Union without the consent of the other States, and to set up as an independent nation. It might in some cases be just and politic to permit such a secession. But this is not the question.--It is whether, upon some alleged grievance, or on account of some fancied good to be obtained, a State has the right to dissolve the bonds of the Union.
"The great majority of the Northern press take ground against this right. Madison, who was better entitled, perhaps, to the name of the Father of the Constitution than any other man, denied it in the most explicit language. Such was Webster's interpretation. Such is the view taken by President Jackson in his proclamation already alluded to. ... We believe it is alike without foundation in the Constitution or in common sense and we have no doubt but it will find in ABRAHAM LINCOLN as prompt and as decided an opponent as it found in ANDREW JACKSON."
11. THE PEOPLE, THE STATES, AND THE UNION Providence Daily Post, November 19, 1860:
"Such being the relation which the States bear to the Union, what utter folly is it to talk of the right of any State to secede! No one State has even the right of revolution. That right belongs to the people of the whole nation. A State or the people of a State may rebel against the government of the United States, but when such rebellion takes place, it will be the duty of the general government to crush such rebellion with all the power given to it by the Constitution. It is to be hoped that no attempt at rebellion will be made by any considerable portion of the people of this country; but there can be no doubt in the mind of any intelligent person as to the manner in which any such attempt should be treated. Our fathers declared their purpose to be 'to form a more perfect union.' If any State can secede at pleasure, our government is but a rope of sand. A successful rebellion or secession a few States now, will be followed by a new rebellion or secession a few years hence, when the States remaining after the first secession shall adopt a line of policy towards some portion of the country, which shall be deemed a cause or made a pretext for a new declaration of independence or an alliance with some foreign power."
12. THE INDISSOLUBLE UNION Philadelphia North American and United States Gazette:
"The principle for which the secessionists open their case is thus an impossibility while this government stands. To admit their first claim is to upset the whole body of our national theory of government. Complaint on the part of any State is, or may be reasonable, and remonstrance, urgent representation by deputation, and possibly in extreme cases temporary resistance to oppressive laws, may be tolerable and necessary. But all this is conformable to the principles of our system, as well as according to reason and to law. Secession is the very antithesis of this, and almost as much a burlesque of legality as it is absurd in respect of sense."
13. THE RIGHT OF PEACEABLE SECESSION Cincinnati Daily Press, November 21, 1860:
"We believe that the right of any member of this Confederacy to dissolve its political relations with the others and assume an independent position is absolute--that, in other words, if South Carolina wants to go out of the Union, she has the right to do so, and no party or power may justly say her nay."
14. SECESSION Circleville (Ohio) Watchman, November 23, 1860:
"But we are quite free to say that, our ideas of true Democracy, of the natural and inalienable rights of man, lead us to the opinion that any State of the confederation has, or at least ought to have, a perfect and undoubted right to withdraw from the Union and to change her form of government whenever a majority of her people shall be of opinion that their rights are being encroached [sic] upon and impaired by the other States."
15. SECESSION--HOW CAN IT BE ACCOMPLISHED? Washington (D.C.) National Republican, November 26, 1860:
"No Republicans, we presume, and very few Northern men of any party, are ready to concede the right of a State to separate from the Union, and thus bring about its dissolution, at pleasure. ... In short, it is sheer nonsense to talk about permitting a State to secede from the Union. So long as the present Constitution stands, no State can get out of the Union, except by a forcible and successful revolution."
16. THE RIGHT OF SECESSION Trenton Daily State Gazette and Republican, December 6, 1860:
"We are of those who believe that no State has the right to secede."
17. SECESSION Burlington (Vt.) Weekly Sentinel, December 14, 1860:
"If one State has the right to go out from the Union, and thus to destroy the unity and integrity of the government, what State may not go out? And what portion within any State may not secede from the State? Why may not a man declare that his farm or his house, or his shop, in Burlington, is no longer under the constitution and laws of Vermont; that he will pay no taxes, obey no process, &c., in a word, inform the world in general, and the State of Vermont in particular, that he had seceded? The right of secession exists in and under a government, as the right of suicide exists in the individual, and in no other way or manner."
18. HOW TO SECEDE New York World, December 15, 1860:
"We therefore submit to the consideration of the country whether the time has not come for an amendment to the Constitution providing for the peaceable secession of states. These threats of dissolving the Union have been held over us about long enough. They have had great influence on the political action of the country, not because the naked fact of separation is anything very formidable, but because secession, as the Constitution now stands, would be the certain forerunner of civil war."
19. THE RIGHT OF SECESSION New York Daily Tribune, December 17, 1860:
"And, if it [the Declaration of Independence] justified the secession from the British Empire of Three Millions of colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861."
By my count that makes 6 in favor of unilateral secession being a right and 13 opposed to the proposition that unilateral secession is a right.
Admiral, what did the CSA do to retard human liberty?
Please tell me that is not a serious question.
Quote:
It is a joke for such knowledgeable folks to pretend that Lincoln's war had anything to do with slavery.
The joke is that if we could go back in time to 1860/61 to listen to people like Rhett and Stephens and the delegates at the various secession conventions tell us why they left the Union some would still refuse to believe that slavery was a factor.
Quote:
But for the life of me I cannot understand why some people are such strong proponents of coersion and the destruction of liberty and self-government.
The north did nothing against the south until Sumter was attacked. The south started a war and paid the price.
If they had simply stayed peacefully on their farms and in their cities minding their own business then maybe you would have a point but they didn't.
Did the south not try to coerce New Mexico into the Confederacy? Did southern filibustering expeditions not try to coerce Latin American countries into slave based societies?
Quote:
when the agreement they entered into had no reference or hint whatsoever that they were entering into such bondage
Anyone else find the above statement ironic?
Article VI:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution;"
Quote:
I thought they were fighting to pin the South to the union with their bayonets.
They were fighting to destroy an aggressive rebellion in their own country.
Quote:
For the life of me I have a hard time understanding how a war to stamp out a peoples' inalienable rights of government by consent of the governed advanced human progress.
The consent of the governed only applied to a special few in the Confederacy.
__________________
Last edited by Admiral_Porter; 12-07-2005 at 06:46 PM.
As far as the Northern states are concerned, the New England states abolished slavery
shortly after the Revolution. Slavery had never existed in the "Old Northwest" In the middle states, schemes of gradual emancipation dragged out slavery's existence, but it had been doomed for decades.
An African American in the North faced many types of discrimination, prejudice and racism on the parts of Northern whites. He was not, however a slave, and he could work for a better day for himself and his children.
I live in the North, and I can assure you that virtue doesn't lie particularly thick on the ground here. But the United States in the war represented the way forward for human liberty, for everyone.
Quote: Admiral__Porter/post # 52:
The northern states were moving forward into the modern world while the south wished to stay in a Medieval state of agricultural serfdom.
What business was it of the norths if the south wished to base it's economy on agriculture? Do you not think agriculture an honourable business?
The above statement, one of authoritative Northern superiority by Admiral__Porter, is one of the key points to understanding why the south wished to leave a group of northern people who would make such a bigoted and judgemental statement toward them.
Who is next on the "northern anti" hit list; Mexico for making those hot tortillas? :-)
What business was it of the norths if the south wished to base it's economy on agriculture?
A slave based agriculture is a violation of the principles of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. The Founding Fathers recognized this in 1776 but the southern delegates balked at the idea of abolition.
Slavery was the major agitation of the Antebellum years. It was the primary cause of all the country's woes.
Elijah P Lovejoy was murdered because he dared print an anti-slavery newspaper. He was simply exercising his right to free speech.
Quote:
Do you not think agriculture an honourable business?
I see nothing wrong with agriculture.
But when human ownership is necessary to farm and then a special interest group ignites a war to preserve their chattel then yes I do have a problem.
Quote:
The above statement, one of authoritative Northern superiority by Admiral__Porter, is one of the key points to understanding why the south wished to leave a group of northern people who would make such a bigoted and judgemental statement toward them.
No the south left because they couldn't imagine life without slavery.
__________________
Last edited by Admiral_Porter; 12-07-2005 at 08:02 PM.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
