Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Yes they did. That was the whole basis of the Confederacy as Alexander Stephens so bluntly put it.
Admiral, what did the CSA do to retard human liberty?
Here is how Stephens so bluntly put it:
This new constitution, or form of government, constitutes the subject to which your attention will be partly invited. In reference to it, I make this first general remark. It amply secures all our ancient rights, franchises, and liberties. All the great principles of Magna Charta are retained in it. No citizen is deprived of life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers under the laws of the land. The great principle of religious liberty, which was the honor and pride of the old constitution, is still maintained and secured. All the essentials of the old constitution, which have endeared it to the hearts of the American people, have been preserved and perpetuated.Some changes have been made. Of these I shall speak presently. Some of these I should have preferred not to have seen made; but these, perhaps, meet the cordial approbation of a majority of this audience, if not an overwhelming majority of the people of the Confederacy. Of them, therefore, I will not speak. But other important changes do meet my cordial approbation. They form great improvements upon the old constitution. So, taking the whole new constitution, I have no hesitancy in giving it as my judgment that it is decidedly better than the old.
They seceded and started a war in order to preserve slavery.
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Originally Posted by hawglips
Here is how Stephens so bluntly put it:
This new constitution, or form of government, constitutes the subject to which your attention will be partly invited. In reference to it, I make this first general remark. It amply secures all our ancient rights, franchises, and liberties. All the great principles of Magna Charta are retained in it. No citizen is deprived of life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers under the laws of the land. The great principle of religious liberty, which was the honor and pride of the old constitution, is still maintained and secured. All the essentials of the old constitution, which have endeared it to the hearts of the American people, have been preserved and perpetuated.Some changes have been made. Of these I shall speak presently. Some of these I should have preferred not to have seen made; but these, perhaps, meet the cordial approbation of a majority of this audience, if not an overwhelming majority of the people of the Confederacy. Of them, therefore, I will not speak. But other important changes do meet my cordial approbation. They form great improvements upon the old constitution. So, taking the whole new constitution, I have no hesitancy in giving it as my judgment that it is decidedly better than the old.
Hal
And he even more bluntly put it this way: "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
Wrong again. "Our position is thoroughly identified with the instution of slavery." [Mississippi Declaration of Causes]
"Our people have come to this on the question of slavery." [Lawrence M. Keitt, South Carolina Secession Convention]
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." [Alexander Stephens, Savannah, Georgia, 21 Mar 1861]
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Originally Posted by hawglips
I guess the slaves in the United States relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty?
There were the slaves who were freed by Northern states who relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty, the slaves in Maryland and Missouri who, when slavery was abolished in those states in 1864, relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty, and the slaves in Delaware and Kentucky who, when the 13th Amendment was ratified due to the actions of the United States, relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty.
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Originally Posted by hawglips
False.
No, it's true.
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the instution of slavery." [Mississippi Declaration of Causes]
"Our people have come to this on the question of slavery." [Lawrence M. Keitt, South Carolina Secession Convention]
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." [Alexander Stephens, Savannah, Georgia, 21 Mar 1861]
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Originally Posted by hawglips
However, the north fought specifically to deny liberty to their Southern brethren.
No, they fought to affirm the supremacy of the US Constitution, which was the guarantor of liberty.
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Originally Posted by hawglips
What a grotesque cause for 600,000 deaths and untold misery.
You may consider the rule of law and the United States to be grotesque things. Others will differ.
I guess the slaves in the United States relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty?
Who would we have to thank for that? Is it not accurate to say that in the big picture, the goal to eradicate slavery was a US one, hampered only by southerners? The leaders of secession certainly thought that was accurate.
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However, the north fought specifically to deny liberty to their Southern brethren.
From the Union perspective, a liberty to unilaterally secede did not exist.
Dear Hal(hawlips)
There have been a lot of posts since you asked me a question in your #38 post, but to finally answer you:
I meant the creation of the Confederacy retarded human progress because it attempted to preserve slavery. Whatever else the CSA was trying to achieve, it was preserving slavery.
Although maybe I'm wrong, because the war ended slavery much sooner than it would have if the South had not seceded.
If I am reading you right, you are being ironic about the "blessings of liberty" for the freedmen. While official and unofficial discrimination existed in the free states, I think we can all agree that it was preferable to slavery.
You can pick and choose only those quotes that support your small, favorite corner of the record, or you can look at the whole picture.
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Cash: There were the slaves who were freed by Northern states who relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty,
But the slaves freed in Southern states did not?
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Cash: ...the slaves in Maryland and Missouri who, when slavery was abolished in those states in 1864, relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty, and the slaves in Delaware and Kentucky who, when the 13th Amendment was ratified due to the actions of the United States, relished their great and wonderful blessings of liberty.
It is a joke for such knowledgeable folks to pretend that Lincoln's war had anything to do with slavery.
I am convinced it's pure desperation. But for the life of me I cannot understand why some people are such strong proponents of coersion and the destruction of liberty and self-government. It really does amaze me.
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Cash: No, it's true.
No, its not.
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Cash: No, they fought to affirm the supremacy of the US Constitution, which was the guarantor of liberty.
Please make up your mind. I thought they were fighting to pin the South to the union with their bayonets. Or rather, to force them to remain in the union they joined back when union meant something more than coersion and empire. Or as you put it, "to hold them to the agreement they had signed up to."
How telling.
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You may consider the rule of law and the United States to be grotesque things. Others will differ.
If there was such a law, it would be at least discussable, though thoroughly barbaric. Since no such law existed, barbarism is a mild description.
Quite frankly, fighting "to hold them to the agreement they had signed up to," when the agreement they entered into had no reference or hint whatsoever that they were entering into such bondage -- that is worst than shameful. If they had the slightest notion that repealing their ratification to join said union at some point in the distant future, when changed circumstances moved them to so act, that they would then be slaughtered for the sake of "union" -- that is about one of the worst acts imaginable for a government of a free people to commit, and the states would have never created the monstrous entity of "union."
If I am reading you right, you are being ironic about the "blessings of liberty" for the freedmen. While official and unofficial discrimination existed in the free states, I think we can all agree that it was preferable to slavery.
Since slavery existed in the USA for for as long as it did in the CSA, one should not pretend that northern slaves were freer.
Dear Hal(hawlips)
There have been a lot of posts since you asked me a question in your #38 post, but to finally answer you:
I meant the creation of the Confederacy retarded human progress because it attempted to preserve slavery. Whatever else the CSA was trying to achieve, it was preserving slavery.
Although maybe I'm wrong, because the war ended slavery much sooner than it would have if the South had not seceded.
For the life of me I have a hard time understanding how a war to stamp out a peoples' inalienable rights of government by consent of the governed advanced human progress.
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