Southern Yankees and Northern Rebels

Neil,

Thanks for the links. Granted I basically ignored the pdf file as I do all pdf files, I did check out the others. The last was too partisan to consider but one did hit on a few things I mentioned. In the end the result was no matter whose army came through it wasn't welcome. nd the division was family oriented. There was no brother vs brother up in the hills. I did notice a lot of the info from one link came from the in/famous Rev Brownlow. You can see one of his envelopes I believe at American Memory. He was a born rabble rouser.





For those unable to read such microscopic print, the envelope says:
Knoxville, April 22, 1861.

Gen. Gideon J. Pillow.--I have just received your message, through Mr. Sale, requesting me to serve as Chaplain to your Brigade in the Southern Army; and in the spirit of kindness in which this request is made, but in all can lor, I return for an answer, that when I shall have made up my mind to go to hell, I will cut my throat and go direct, and not travel round by the way of the Southern Confederacy. I am, very respectfully &c.,

W. G. BROWNLOW


There was also matching stationary with the same lithograpgh and literature on it.

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Again, I was just trying to show two sides of a coin. I always am wary of any flat statement and want to make sure if there are any different views on the subject.

I thought you might like the site with the review of the book War At Every Door. It seemed to support your view that there was just a lot of resentment, grudges and revenge being acted out.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Neil,

I liked that review and I'd like to read it. I thought you might like the Brownlow Envelope and the letter on it. ( I could comment on the link that was a pdf file. Not because of content but I just dislike dealing with pdf files. Just a personal quirk)

East Tennessee/West N Carolina was a very unique place. I'm not talking about the Brownlow types. Which were somewhat interesting but not much different from everywhere else. But the People. The Appalachian hill folk are a one of a kind people. BTW, It is properly pronounced Appa-latch-chan. There was talk of forming a state in East Tennessee. Seceding from Tennessee. But they had no interest in joining the Union like West Virginia did. They wanted to fight everyone.


I wish I could find the site. It is a PBS story. Telling of how Cornwallis used the Tories to help him subdue the populous. But it was only a very short time before Cornwallis was aghast and sickened by the viciousness and the brutality of the Tories. To the point he spent much of his time trying to subdue the Tories as much as he did the Traitors. Little did he know there was bad blood when the folks before he showed up. Just the power balance had been equal. It all came down to the Scottish descendants IIRC. I need to read the book you showed the review of but I also need to read Albions Seed. Which contends our civil war was just an extention of the English Civil War.

[unionblue]

Tommy,

I appreciated the Brownlow Envelope and thanks for giving the words of the print that was too small to see on it.

Sounds like Mel Gibson's movie, 'The Patriot' wasn't too far off. Wasn't that English cavalry guy in charge of Torries during the flick?

Unionblue

[larry_cockerham]

I believe, believe it or not, that Andrew Johnson was also a minor factor, his having been formerly governor of Tennessee. The hill folk are also awfully loyal and many as you alude were descendants of old English families. I don't think the revolution persay was that big a factor. The folks with the problems lasting from the revolution were mostly on the east side of the blue ridge. (unless of course you happened to be Cherokee). Were there hill country feuds? Certainly, and yes bloody ones at that such as in the activity centered on Champ Ferguson. The more nearly civilized folks in the larger towns were still victims of the 'recruiters' more so than their conscience. Was West Tennessee a factor. Nope. Even folks in Nashville could still live without Memphis and vice-versa.

[unionblue]

MobileBoy,

Here is the thread I was talking about concerning Southern men who fought for the Union and Northern men who fought for the Confederacy.

Why don't we pick up from Bill's thread and put our debate here on the matter?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[MobileBoy]

Neil,
Thanks I just located it.Skipping my apologies for jumping to conclusions,on the site I found which I thought didn't include black troops I got a similar number of 450,000.That matches Freeling's number exactly.Therefore maybe my numbers counted black troops,but I don't think so nor do I think Freeling counted them either.I would appreciate someone who knows the answer.I bought Freelings book on the subject and I confess it was an excellent read.However I was disapointed that by Southern he meant Missouri and the border states as well.I was well aware that approximately 200,000 citizens from Missouri enlisted in the Union ranks, as well as about 100,000 from Kentucky and 50,000 from Maryland.In short I couldn't wait to get home and read the book to learn something new about the war.Then I was frustrated to see that Freelings definition of Southern didn't meet my own which.I'd like to see everyone's opinion on Southern.I can see Maryland and Kentucky being called Southern but to me Missouri is Midwestern if anything ,but not Southern.Maybe that's just my personal opinion though.I thought Union enlistments in the border states or slave states would have been a much more appropriate title.As I said Missouri had twice as many men join the Union side as all 11 recognized Confederate states all together,and Kentucky just as many.I could rightfully be accused of having a chip on my shoulder as far as the Confederacy is concerned goes.

I liked the story about Jeb Stuart's father-in-law on the Union side chasing him on his remarkable ride around McClellans army.I always wondered if he really tried his best to catch Stuart.It would be tough for Daddy to face his daughter after killing her husband don't you think?Of course can you imagine the ribbing he got behind his back for Stuart's ride.

Next I always was interested in George Thomas.Though an ardent Confederate patriot I always had a lot of respect for this man for following his conscience.His family reportedly turned his picture face to the wall, and never spoke to him again.I have two sisters and God knows I would never willingly do something to incur their fury.I usually read history with what if scenarios in mind.I also wonder what if Thomas had fought for the Confederacy.I personally rate him behind only Lee and Jackson in mythical ranking of would be Confederate generals.

As far as Northern born Confedeates I've always thought Gorgas from Pennsylvania never gets enough credit for the miraculous job he did of supplying weapons for the Southern army.Pemberton is another I'm familiar with ,but he could've just stayed up North.How many Northerners actually served in the Southern ranks?I've read numbers before, but Ialways thought it was mainly neo-Conferate propaganda and dismissed them.

I was always amazed about how many cousins and such fought for opposing sides.It seemed to me that poeple in those days opinions were greatly shaped
by where their home was and how their community felt .That seemed to matter to most of them more than the ideals that most of us put forth today.

Regards,
Ashley

[unionblue]

Ashley,

Thanks for joining me here so that we might continue our debate.

I too, have Prof. Freehling's book and found it pretty interesting. I have it now in front of me and I will try to answer your question about if he included the number of black troops into his total of Southern men who joined the Union army.

In the preface of his book, The South vs The South, on page xiii, he state the following:

"Statistics indicate other Southerners' ability to cool white Confederates' ador; and the numbers illuminate but the tip of the iceberg. Southern blacks supplied close to 150,000 Union soldiers and sailors (northern free blacks provided another 50,000). Border South whites added 200,000 and Confederate state whites 100,000 soldiers to Union troop strength. The resulting total of 450,000 Southerners who wore Union blue, half as many as the 900,000 Southerners who wore Confederate gray, replaced every one of the Federals' 350,000 slain men and supplied 100,000 more men besides--a number greater that the usual size of Robert E. Lee's main Confederate army. White Confederates developed no such replacements for their mounting casualties; and in addition, anti-Confederate Southerners piled on psychological, economic, and geographic burdens that ultimately helped flatten white Confederate resiliency."

I too, very much like the story of George Thomas and how he pretty much was one of the best Union Generals of the war. His story is one I like reading about and I agree pretty much with your ranking of him. I consider him more able than Sherman or Sheridan.

Like I said, I know 5,000 Ohioians fought for the South, but I don't have much information or the figures on how many others came from Northern states and fought for the South. I do know around 50,000 Canadians came south and fought for BOTH sides.

Again, why not ask someone from Missouri if they consider themselves southern or midwestern? Better yet, what did the citizens of that state during 1860 consider themselves?

Myself, I think the state was settled as a slave state with folks coming from the South primarily, so it would follow that they would think themselves Southern in outlook. Ask yourself this question, did the Southern leadership of the time court them and count on them to support them as Southerners? Makes for a good research question.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[ole]

MobileBoy:

Saying Missouri was southern is much like saying Illinois and Indiana and Ohio were Northern. Northern Missouri was more closely related to Iowa in its agrarian style. South of the Missouri River was more closely related to Arkansas.

When I lived there, I got the distinct impression that Missourians thought of themselves as Southerners. I can't speak for Maryland, but Davis and Lee certainly thought of it as Southern when they went north in September, 1862, to free them from Northern despotism.

New Jersey, with the largest population of slaves in the north until 1865, was Northern. The line is grey. But it is there.
Regards,
Ole

[Admiral_Porter]

John Pemberton, Daniel Ruggles, and Bushrod Johnson were northerners fighting for the Confederacy.

David Farragut, David Bell Birney, and John Gibbon were southerners fighting for the Union.