Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
John Brown never owned any part of the arsenal he raided, the private property he invaded and stole, or the lives of those he took it upon himself to take hostage and/or extinguish in the name of fomenting a servile insurrection.
I'm not sure how one can see a parallel with those acts and the act of a State repealing it's own ratification of the Constitituional union and reclaiming jurisdiction.
Thanks for the excerpt Neil.I don't believe Lincoln hated slavery at that point nor did leading abolitionist.I see that as a typical political statement.
Ashley:
Lincoln hated slavery all of his adult life.
And of course it was a political statement. All politicians make political speeches all the time. What struck me about the Cooper Union Speech (you have read it, of course) was his logical reasoning for limiting the expansion of slavery into the territories, and the lack of political rhetoric.
Cash,
You state that Brown's goal was good(end of slavery), but his method wrong.
How so? Because of his use of violence, in general, or just that this particular scheme failed?
Because he acted violently outside the law. I can understand why he did it, but even though I understand his motivation and his frustrations, I do not condone what he did.
Are you saying the Feds might have turned John Brown loose if a Federal indictment and trial been convened...or not?
I am not. Wise had a personal vendetta in this in that Brown had embarrassed Wise.
With only four men and a few slaves, Brown had held off the local militia and people who had responded to the raid, the total number being upwards of 800 men. That was most embarrassing to Wise, who frequently boasted about the prowess of southern manhood.
"A think, tobacco-chewing slaveholder with aspirations to the presidency, Wise supported dueling and the bowie knife, a weapon with which, he later boasted, the South could easily conquer the North. This scrappy Virginian was not going to allow himself to be bested by an Abolitionist. He would make sure that John Brown hanged and that Virginia hanged him." [David S. Reynolds, John Brown, Abolitionist: The Man Who Killed Slavery, Sparked the Civil War, and Seeded Civil Rights, pp. 337-338]
Basically, Wise was humiliated and bitter over what Brown had done against Virginia and Maryland militia.
"After Brown's capture Wise castigated the inefficient militia companies of Virginia and Maryland. As a local paper reported, 'When the Governor was informed of the mere handful of men who had created all this bobbery he boiled over.' He was so ashamed of the militia's performance, he said, that he would rather lose his right arm than have the South disgraced in such a way again. His son, O. Jennings Wise, later went to court against Colonel Robert W. Baylor, the main commander of the militia companies at Harpers Ferry on October 17. Wise charged Baylor with cowardice and dereliction of duty in not storming the engine house with his vastly superior force." [Ibid., p. 338]
Thanks for the excerpt Neil.I don't believe Lincoln hated slavery at that point nor did leading abolitionist.I see that as a typical political statement.
Lincoln hated slavery at that point and well prior to that point. Leading abolitionists did as well, which is why they were abolitionists. One doesn't normally seek to abolish something unless one believes it to be wrong.
Lincoln explained the Republican party's view on the actions of John Brown's raid stage in October 1859 in his Cooper Union speech of 1860:
"At that time Lincoln denounced Brown's attempt to stir up an insurrection among the slaves as "wrong for two reasons. It was a violation of the law and it was, as all such attacks must be, futile, as far as any effect it might have on the extinction of a great evil." Though he had paid tribute to Brown's "great courage, rare unselfishness" and sympathized with his hatred of slavery, he concluded that the old abolitionist was "insane."
Unionblue
Brown was certainly courageous and unselfish. He believed thoroughly in equal rights for blacks and was one of the few white men in the 19th Century who actually treated blacks as equals. There is a great deal to admire in the man, although there is also quite a bit to find repelling. I don't believe Brown was insane, though.
Cash I meant that some Northern abolitionist didn't think Lincoln hated slavery silly.I believe Garrison comes to my mind.
__________________ "The sword is mighty, but principles laugh at swords. Overwhelming force may crush truth to earth but, crushed or not the truth is still the truth." Regards, Ashley
Cash I meant that some Northern abolitionist didn't think Lincoln hated slavery silly.I believe Garrison comes to my mind.
The responsibility for ensuring people understand what you write is yours. Don't call someone else names because you didn't write clearly.
Garrison believed Lincoln hated slavery but didn't like the fact that Lincoln wasn't in favor of immediate abolition. Wendell Phillips is probably the person you're thinking of. Phillips called Lincoln the "Slave Hound of Illinois" because Lincoln was in favor of obeying the law, which included the Fugitive Slave Law. Lincoln wanted to work within the law, while Phillips was a great deal more radical and wanted to throw the law away. That doesn't change the fact that Lincoln hated slavery. The vast majority of public speeches he gave in the 1850s were opposing slavery.
Cash,
I was hardly trying to offend you or call you names by calling you silly.I'm sorry if your self-esteem is low but give me a break.Does calling you silly seem like I was trying to insult?If I wanted to insult you I would have done so and silly wouldn't be a word I would use though several other words are currently running through my mind.
__________________ "The sword is mighty, but principles laugh at swords. Overwhelming force may crush truth to earth but, crushed or not the truth is still the truth." Regards, Ashley
I am not sure about Lincoln hating slavery at that point, but he was already on record as saying it was wrong and leading abolishionists were all for emancipation of the slaves, most peacefully, some violently with no recompensation for the slaveowners.
In fact, most abolishionists did not want Lincoln for President or as a candidate for one as they considered him soft on the issue of slavery and pro-Southern in his outlook. Lincoln was a compromise candidate with the Republican party because he seemed not to have a hard stance on slavery as viewed from an abolishionist stand. Most thought (in the Republican party and the North) that Lincoln would compromise with the South on the issue of slavery expansion and aviod another confrontation.
Lincoln's view on John Brown was pretty simple. The man broke the law and got pretty much what he deserved. He once said, "Let every man remember that to violate the law is to trample on the blood of his father."
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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