What, in your PERSONAL opinion, Part II

[unionblue]

Friends,

Well, I tried not to be the one to open a new thread, but, here goes anyway!

To all guests and members of this board, be it known that this thread is a continuation of the thread entitled,

"What, in your PERSONAL opinion, was the cause of the War, and how did you come to your conclusion?"

That thread was so successful and so rich with detail and research that all members involved with it wish it to continue. Although the original intent of the thread was to find out from members and visitors what their thoughts were on the causes of the War, if you review the thread, you will see it covers many subjects, areas and opinions on a wide range of Civil War topics.

Now we invite all to give their opinions on any aspect of the War, not only on just the causes, but on any subject relating to the war you may find interesting or dear to your beliefs.

The debate and search on the Civil War goes on and I for one cannot wait to see where this path leads us. To quote a dear friend of mine, "The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what THEY did..."

Let us continue to not forget by talking, debating and researching, so that, all Americans, North & South, along with their sacrifices will not be forgotten.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

Hi everyone,

Those who have followed Part 1 of this thread know that the subject of The Know Nothing Party came up. (where and why I come up with this left field stuff I have no idea) Well, I have done a tiny bit of research and here are two links I found. They are pretty self explanatory. But I should warn you. Almost everything I have found out about the KNP, other sources found something to be contradicted.

Thats all for now. Rest assured I'll be back soon as I uncover another nugget of info.

YMOS
tommy



This is a really pretty good site. Not only informative in general it specifically names some of the secret societies formed..

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark...r/850amer.html




This next one is interesting. In it points out U.S. Grant was a member of a Know Nothing lodge. (I need to research this little tidbit) Also it refers to delays in the building of the Washington Monument, not included in the site provided but I found this info regarding the delays and what part Know Nothings had in it.


“One of the commemorative stones was a block of marble originally from the Temple of Concord in Rome. This stone was gift from Pope Pius IX. On March 6, 1854, the stone was stolen by masked thieves and either broken into pieces, or dumped into the Potomac River. Whatever its fate, it was never found and no arrests were made. There were rumors that the theft was the result of religious prejudices. The chief suspects were members of a political faction known as the American Party, commonly called the "Know Nothing" Party. This organization was known to have anti-Catholic and anti-foreigner sentiments. When the press released the story, large numbers of people became incensed over the fact that vandals were allowed to take the stone from the monument grounds in the first place. The thought that religious prejudices were behind the act was more than the public would tolerate. This incident caused a vast reduction in commemorative stones and monetary contributions being sent to complete the monument. In 1854, when the obelisk had risen only 152 feet, all contributions stopped, putting an end to the construction that would span over twenty years. “

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/clas.../nativism.html

[unionblue]

"Smoke drifts across the field. A great battle has recently taken place, as any observer with eyes can tell. Wreckage and debris is strewn inbetween the battle lines, across that 'small, deadly space' where each side awaits the others next volley.

Suddenly, a movement, quick and nervous, is seen in one of the trenches. A battered blue forage cap edges cautiously over the edge and underneath it, a brown eye squints looking for a target amidst all the smoke and haze. A musket comes up, long and deadly, an arm in a torn, blue coat steadies it, the figure takes a deep breath, aims and then pulls the trigger..."

And tries to pick up from where he left off at the other thread.

I am going to entitle this piece, 'What I learned on Part I of this continuing thread.'

Back on March 15, 2003, or 280 posts ago, I had the pleasure (or the misfortune, depending on your point of view and the debating bullet holes I now have in my jacket and pride) of beginning this thread with my own personal opinion on what was the primary cause of the Civil War and why I had come to that opinion.

Since that time, I have discussed slavery, tariffs, taxes, the constitution, railroads, General Sherman, taxes, immigration, Radical Republicans, Lincoln, Jeff Davis, Lee, Grant, Karl Marx, the Articles of Confederation, the Tenth Amendment, food recipes, slave migrations, Reconstruction, the Supreme Court, The Emancipation Proclamation, Hinton's Helper Book, Fort Sumter, Nazis, and numerous other subjects that for the life of me I just cannot remember.

I have debated, reasoned, pleaded, cajoled, argued and joked with all the participants on that thread. I have read countless documents, articles, magazines, books and visited countless websites in research for presenting counter-arguments to my fellow board-members. I have at times been amused, entertained, upset, angered and out and out exasperated at their replies and reasoning for those replies.

But I have never been lied to or embarrassed or insulted by them.

I have been called to task many a time and have been told more times than I can count to 'put up or shut up' and dig up some proof or documentation to back up my own arguments or wild theories. I have demanded the same from them more times than I can count on this thread or the previous one.

What I have learned is that the people on this board are serious, passionate, concerned and dedicated to searching out what they consider the truth about the Civil War. They wish to learn and to teach about it and NEVER forget about it.

Three other things I have learned on this thread.

1. The Hinton Helper Book more than likely helped make a bad situation worse by frightening Southern slaveowners into thinking that the incoming Republican administration was dedicated to destroying slavery by any means possible.

2. There is a letter from Lincoln to Gustavus Fox where Lincoln expressed his hopes that the South would fire on Ft. Sumter and be the ones who would make the first act of war.

3. Always keep your research (powder) dry and close at hand.

As for what awaits me at the beginning of this new, continued thread, I have no clue. But sure as shooting, it's going to be interesting!

"...A shot rings out, and a mine' ball hurtles on its way as the blue clad figure quickly ducks down to the bottom of his trench, for he knows, a reply will soon be in coming,,,"

Sincerely,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

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(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

Neil,
What a splendid entry you made. I am very impressed indeed. More than my limited vocabulary can express so I will just say "Cool, very cool"

OK I have a question for you. Everyone in fact. Anyone. On one of the sites I provided link to regarding the Know Nothing Party (for which I will from now on use the acronym KNP ) I read this statement:

“1855 - U.S. Grant joined a Know-Nothing lodge in St. Louis; blamed his failure to win the job of county engineer in 1859 on immigrants (who made up half the population of St. Louis) “


I haven't been able to find any info online to dispute or corroborate it. Do you know of anything regarding this? Anything? Anyone? No rush or need to exert any real energy but if you or anyone runs across some info on it I’d be grateful if you could pass it along. If it is from a book, feel free to just summarize or just give a yea or nay

Just curious,

YMOS
tommy

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Thank you for your kind words on my little post. Just goes to show you just how boring it can be at the Post Office on the midnight shift.

On your question on Grant and his being the member of a Know-Nothing lodge in St. Louis, it might be best if you check on Connie Boone's old favorite site, the US Grant web page. There was a heck of a lot of information and people who knew a lot about him there. Maybe we both ought to sneak on over and ask what they know about it.

Myself, if the fact is true, it would not surprise me very much as I remember Grants infamous Jewish order during the war.

Now, for you Tommy, something we both may find of interest. You have went to great lengths to discuss the Hinton R. Helper Book and its effects on the South. Did you know that Hinton wrote the book in response to a book written by one George Fitzhugh entitled, "Cannibals All! or Slaves without Masters, 1857?

The book argues for all labor, both white and black, to be enslaved. Kind of a scary concept for me and I am sure one for all those folks up North. You can read it on the following site:

http://docsouth.unc.edu/fitzhughcan/fitzcan.html

And before this little gem, ol' George had written another little book entitled, "Sociology for the South" another book stating the lower classes should all be slaves so the upper elite could get on with advancing civilization.

Makes interesting reading all right. Makes me wonder if his two books were not endorsed by prominent Southerners. Come to think of it, he dedicates "Cannibals All!" to Gov. Henry Wise.

Any thoughts on this one?

Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 06, 2003)

Neil,
I completely forgot about Grant's Jewish order. I am not sure where the Grant site is, the one I found was defunct. But granted, I only searched a short while...I’ll go look after I post this. Then since the sun is coming up I’m off to sleep.

As to Fitzhugh's book. Actually this is the first I have read any of it. I seem to recall hearing of it on PBS. It is a pretty odd book to say the least from what I can tell from but a single glance. I will have to really read it before I could give a legitimate opinion. What I read seemed to paralleled some of the philosophies of the day. Our day too....No liberty except by labor of others etc...of course the old saw that Slavery is in best interest of the negro etc... Yet other parts seem to contradict the south’s credo of independence. I will read this I assure you. But before I start, do you know why some of it is in red and some isn’t? Also, any idea how many copies it sold?

It looks like a very fascinating book. I am eager to start on it. I noticed it draws heavily upon English, French, Russian, etc. Interesting concept to save the poor misery by enslaving them.....yet he is not referring to all slavery as bought and sold I don’t think. I think it is more like serfs? Kinda a weird socialists twist? I might go back and read his first book first.........

Thank you for drawing this book to my attention....I will get back to you on it when I have finished it.


Thanks again,
YMOS
tommy

(Message edited by aphillbilly on June 06, 2003)

[tamaroa]

I mentioned this once before and I will post it again because I think it is vitally important as an aid to understanding the know nothings and the immigrant situation. Please read this book. It is only $27.50 yet it provides you with a tremendous insight as to the Irish situation in the 1840's in the U.S. It is a story of a battalion of soldiers who deserted the US army and joined Mexico during the Mexican war. The author Peter Stevens does not just cover the San Patricio Battalion but he explores in depth the animosity between the Protestant officers corps and the newly enlisted Irish catholics. The book makes you sit up and think. I very highly recommend it.

Rogue's March. John Riley & The St. Patrick's Battalion 1846-48 Peter Stevens

[unionblue]

Bill,

I agree with you on the part of the depth of the animosity between Protestant and Catholics during the 1840's has definitely been a surprise for me.

When Tommy put me on to the Know-Nothings, I decided to do some checking on my own so I surfed the web and kept hitting the anti-Catholic theme. I then typed in my search engine Anti-Catholic riots and was even more surprised at the number of hits I got. And I feel I am just now hitting the tip of the iceberg on the subject.

It is amazing to me how this country ever got past some of its racial discrimination on religion and race, and please note I said SOME.

I remember reading an abolitionist tract where the writer was pleading the cause of the black man, that he was a human being with a soul and deserved help and compassion and at least he wasn't like those nasty Chinese! Makes you wonder if the human race has a chance in hell sometimes.

I will definitely check out your book as this topic is beginning to really interest me.

Tommy, go to your search engine and type in 'US Grant page' and you should come up on it. I went there last night and checked out the sites message board and have yet to see anything on Grant being a member of a Know-Nothing Lodge in St. Louis, but I have a lot more to check out and will get back to you on what I find.

Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 07, 2003)

[thea_447]

To all my old friends, and the new ones that we hope will find these tidbits interesting enough to want to stay and hopefully contribute something for us all to hash over, I say welcome to Part 2.

We've had some jolly fun in Part 1 in which we learned to either speak softly and carry an exceedingly large stick, or we picked our weapons and words with great care. Each person who has written anything in Part 1 has given some new insight on the War Between the States, from their personal point of view. We've run the gamut from impassioned pleas for understanding from our obstinant counterparts to great thunderings of righteous indignation. And through it all, we've remained friends and no real blood has been shed.

Some would ask, what's the big deal? It all happened so long ago, why bother to argue among yourselves. But for all of us, it is a noble venture: to try and understand what made men on both sides fight to the death for four long years.

More words have probably been written about this war than any other and we are certainly no closer to solving the perplexities than the finest historians. But we have the advantage. We can continue to ponder this war for the rest of our lives while those that it impacted the most have been in their graves low these many years, resting peacefully at last.

It is to the memory of the gallantry, bravery and nobility of the mighty Blue and Gray that we dedicate our feeble words. And in writing down our thoughts we hope to enlighten others who may have wondered about some of the same things that we discuss.

We encourage all avid history buffs and true historians alike to join us. You will have a wonderful time here, make many friends, and will ALWAYS come away wanting to learn more!

You will hear a lot from Neil, a resident Yankee (aka Spy Guy using Postal Worker as his disguise while lurking in the entrenchments waiting for another round from the Southern sector.) Tommy, writing as APHillbilly likes to be self-deprecating but don't be fooled by the Aw Shucks attitude. He cuts to the heart of the matter faster than you can say Ham and Eggs.(And since he mentions sometimes that he sleeps in the daytime, there are serious thoughts that he may be a Vampire.)

Bill and Ed are level-headed, take cool aim when firing,and try earnestly to be fair. If need be they referee when first blood is drawn. (P.S. Ed scares me with the ease of his knowledge.)

Greg and Shane slip in and out throwing a bomb or two and waiting for the implosion that always follows,as do Daniel and a few others.

I am the mild mannered Southern woman tooling around in the Abrams tank, but still hoisting my trusty Enfield when in close quarters. (These are modern times after all.)

But don't be fooled by any of this. We all enjoy history and are here to learn from one another. There is never a guarantee that we will be able to change any opinions but we do get a different perspective by what we read here. So please join us!

Now on to the Know-Nothings...
I cannot print this out, but if you go to this site, it is quite interesting. The third column fascinated me. I am going to look at other sites as they are suggested.
Till we meet again, I remain, YMOS, Thea
***************
33rd Congress, 2nd Session The Tariff Question-Know Nothings -Mr. Straub
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=038/llcg038.db&recNum= 223

[unionblue]

Thea,

Excellent reference! But what strange reading it makes! It sounds like someone was trying to sound a warning about the Know-Nothings, that they were anything but 'American' in their actions.

I just wonder how much power and influence this group had in Radical Republican politics? Interesting, no?

And Thea, mild-mannered Southern woman? Please! Very nice post above, by-the-way. I hope as you do we encourage a few more to join in our postings.

Until that time,

Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on June 07, 2003)