Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Neil, Mr. McKelroy's argument that the Continental Congress' convening to discuss mutual complaints towards the British somehow constitutes the formation of a government that somehow creates the very entities that sent men to convene the congress, is beyond my abilities to comprehend. This is akin to saying the United States gave up its rights to act as a sovereignty in its relations with the rest of North American when it convened with Canada and Mexico to discuss NAFTA.
As for the clause "in order to form a more perfect Union" somehow constituting the surrender of rights not specified in the document which clearly indicates that only the few and defined powers listed therein are to be given to the federal government; I am equally perplexed by the notion.
The Southern States individually chose to withdraw from the Union each had voluntarily joined. The refusal by the federal government to recognize that right but rather to force an unwanted government upon those that did not want it is the only reason for the war.
Had the States which joined together in convention to form the Union had any ideas that the federal government they formed may one day claim the hidden Hotel California clause, at the penalty of death, and that the States surrendered their sovereignty to the aggregate federal majority by acceding to the Union, then the U.S. Constitution would have NEVER been ratified.
There was no need nor justification for coercing the States against their will.
On the prayer: trying to remember, was it George Washington?
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
Correct! George Washington's prayer for the United States.
Hal,
I am sorry that the formation of the national government springing from the Continental Congress is beyond your comprehension. But the facts of the matter are still just that, fact. And these historical facts took place in an atmosphere and time that in no way compares with the formed nations of Canada, Mexico and the US and NAFTA.
As for the phrase 'a more perfect Union' the delegates from PA made mention of this phrase when describing to their State government what it implied, a permanent Union with a supreme national government with powers over the states. Again, no surprise to those who debated and argued the concept.
What perplexes me is that you can make the statement that the Southern States individually decided to withdraw from the Union. There is compelling evidence to the contrary. South Carolina may have not even had a majority of the population supporting secession according to one historian's view.
It seems to me secession only became in vogue with the South when it felt it could no longer hold onto political power, as the region had opposed secession when Northern States had threatened it in the past before the war.
No, I am more perplexed by the notion you seem to have, that a newly formed nation must have a hidden 'Secession Suicide Clause' to be trotted out at the first sign of dissatisfaction and disagreement.
They (the States) knew, Hal, that they had obligations and sacrificed powers when they became a nation. It had been debated, discussed, and compromised on. To imply that they had such a lack of confidence and vision on what they were trying to do that they would build in a hidden escape clause is to me just not acceptable nor reasonable.
Until that time,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Have you posted on other talk boards before? Your Username seems very familiar to me. Have I seen 'Hawglips' debate the Civil War on other boards?
If you are the same person I have seen in action before, I am honored to debate you here, as your research and reasoning is excellent and to be seriously considered before replying!
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Neil, I used to frequent the Grant board, and enjoy visiting a couple others from time to time. "hawglips" is my typical username. Your kind words are appreciated.
But I must say, the Continental Congress did not form any government at all, much less a "national" one. Those present did not consider it so (they still referred to themselves as "subjects" of England, etc in the documents resulting from the congress), nor did those that met in succeeding Congresses consider the results of their debates to be a "national" government. That term was debated and left out of the Constitution precisely for the reasons of retaining State sovereignty we have been discussing.
It all comes down to one incoming elected official deciding to oppose secession with military force. So unnecessary.
I thought so! I had read a lot of the archives on the Grant page and enjoyed it very much and thought you had been there! A pleasure sir!
As for you last sentence in the above post, too simple a view. It was not just Lincoln deciding to oppose secession and I am afraid it leaves out much of the debate from the 1830's onward on the subject.
Until next time,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You guys must stop these debates. Reading them keeps making me late for work. Besides which my position still has not changed. After all is said and done, I still feel that the southerners were not traitors and that secession was not prohibited.
Neil, you are correct in stating that it was not just Lincoln opposing secession. But my point is that the decision to militarily force it on the states was his alone. He could have pursued any of a number of other options. He chose the worst one.
Had Lincoln done nothing, would the remaining States have pushed for military coercion?
Hal, read instead of sleep... after all sleep is for wimps. Admitedly, happy well rested wimps, but wimps nonetheless.
What can be more interesting that the ACW. Ahhh Hardtack & Salt Pork w/ a steaming cup of hot coffee. A nice toasty camp fire and the open sky w/ nothing but a blanket & a poncho. What more could you want.
WE'll avoid talk about dysentery & other less entertaining past times... no pun intended.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
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Reading them keeps making me late for work.
Besides which my position still has not changed. After all is said and done, I still feel that the southerners were not traitors and that secession was not prohibited. 
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