Was War Necessary After Secession?

Lol Ok..I am addicted to Dr. Pepper.

[unionblue]

Tommy,

I feel that I must warn you in that I am an expert in turning true rebels against their cause when I catch them in a moment of physical weakness! I am VERY good at it, as my dear friend, Old Reb, will attest.

There is no more committed rebel than Old Reb, my dear friend and former resident of the Great State of Mississippi. Ron even got me to reenact Confederate and become a Rebel officer to boot in the very Confederate unit he formed from scratch from a bunch of Ohio boys! Under no circumstances would Ron betray the South, the Army of Northern Virginia or say a kind word about Lincoln, not even if it meant his being denied entry into heaven. UNTIL.....

We, Ron, myself, my wife and several others of the reenacting unit, Company D, 17th Mississippi Infantry Regiment, 'The Rough & Readies' were on our way to another fine National event being held in Virginia where our unit was to join thousands of others in recreating the bloody Horse Shoe battle.

Now, while Ron is fine specimen of a true Southern man, full of honor, dignity and chivalry, (and not ONE good thing to say about Lincoln) he is a very forgetful man. Time and time again, Ron will forget meeting times and such, to the point we guesstimate his arrival times in "Ron Time" (about ten to twenty minutes late, if you are lucky!). Ron also tends to forget certain items during his rush out the door for reenactments, like blank rounds, caps, etc.

On this fine occasion, Ron had forgotten his wallet. When we began our trip from central Ohio to Southern Virginia, no one, not even Ron was aware of this small item of information. So, Ron being Ron and riding in my car, made every nasty comment and observation on Lincoln he could come up with, including a few new ones he knew would cause me a slow burn. BUT.....

A little while later, around lunch time, we all decided to go where I wanted to eat, MacDonalds, and Ron, being a BIG Southern gentleman, was REALLY hungry. How hungry, you ask? REALLY, REALLY hungry! So hungry in fact, he asked me for a loan for that weekend of $20. Being the kind Northern gentleman that I am, I said sure. BUT....

There were conditions. Ron could not say anything bad about President Lincoln the ENTIRE weekend. Period. No mater what ANYONE said, not just myself, if he heard comments about Lincoln, he could say nothing bad about the man. You could see Ron just about to explode with the conflict of his stomach and his Southern pride. I'll give Ron this much, he held out, for ten minutes before selling his soul to the keeper of the Lincoln/Sherman shrine! Oh, What an evil, delightful day!

I tortured Ron the entire weekend, praising Lincoln to the skies, commenting on how great the man was and how much foresight he had, etc., eternally etc., all weekend long.

When we finished Sunday afternoon and drove out of Virginia back into Southern Ohio and stopped at the very same MacDonalds, Ron was released from his vow, and release he did with a vengeance!

But Ron knows, and I know, like all of you on this board knows, a BIG MAC is a powerful weapon when defending your convictions.

YMOS,
Unionblue
Evil consultant to MacDonalds and the Union Cause & Lincoln/Sherman Shrine.

Neil,
Right now the prefect weapon would be a 20 ounce ice cold bottle of Dr. Pepper with a Big Mac....I am hungry as well as thirsty....I'd praise Sherman for one right now.
Ok I am off to get ready.....Catch ya'll later......

YMOS
tommy

[tamaroa]

Neil, I read your 11/11 at 10:56 post, too bad you couldn't wait 4 minutes post with some interest. though I truly believe that you believe what you say., I have only this to ponder. The Colonists murdered an idea and were traitorous to the King of England. If Southerners were guilty of the same thing, why do you not castigate our traitorous forefathers in the same manner. The colonists won their fight changing them from traitors to patriots. The South lost their fight being forever branded as traitors. Out of curiosity, what do you think of the much maligned tories of the Revolutionary years? Were they traitors to the colonies or Loyal to King George? Did not our illustrious forefathers swear fealty to the King of England? Therefore the tories were loyal to the king. Our alleged patriots were traitors. There is a great line in a Tom Berenger movie about the San Patricios of Mexican War fame. Berenger is questioned as to why he deserted the American Army. Didn't he know his actions were traitorous? Riley (Berenger's character) replies "One Man's Hero is another man's traitor, I guess".

Its all a matter of perspective. I do not believe that you will ever succeed in making me change my mind, though I do continue to learn more and more reading your posts. I do get a kick though out of those who call southerners treasonous when this very country was born out of treason to the King of England. Talk about the pot calling the kettle Black.

Cheers and I like Dr. Pepper too. Try it hot with a slice of lemon in it. that's how we used to drink it in Virginia.

Bill

[johan_steele]

Treason is a matter of winners & losers... THe South Lost.

I have to make a note to lay off of Aphillbilly... anybody who drinks Dr. Pepper can't be all that bad. Now laced w/ a shot of Southern Comfort & w/ several... dozen reruns. I'm inclined to start singing dixie.

Good Luck & God Speed Aphillbilly

[unionblue]

Bill,

I agree to a point with your post above dated November 12, 2003 - 09:08am. To a point. The men in the colonies WERE traitors to their Mother Country and their King, make no mistake about it. The only reason they are not referred to as such today is, as Shane pointed out, they won.

By the skin of their teeth, of course, and I have seen the movie you refer to with Tom Berenger and had nothing but sympathy for the movies main characters and motives.

Now, my movie trivia saying comes from the play and movie, "1776" where Ben Franklin is having a chat with John Adams and he makes the observation, "Treason is a charge invented by the winners as an excuse for hanging the losers."

There is one old saying that I do not agree with. "Violence never settles anything." I'm afraid it does. History is replete with examples of it. From the destruction of Carthage to the overthrow of Hitler.

One other old saying I do believe without fail is, "Timing is everything." The South's sense of timing was to say the least, bad.

And, as I said friend Bill, I agree with you concerning the pot calling the kettle black, but please process in the above sayings and you will come close to what I think on the subject.

YMOS,
Unionblue
PS Bill, do you like Big Macs?

(Message edited by Unionblue on November 12, 2003)

[tamaroa]

Neil everyone of the sayings is on the money. Let me throw in another, "Might makes right." I do not agree with that thought philosophically; but, who can argue when it comes to the facts. The winner makes the rules.

We have to stop being so succinct here.. Or else we won't have anything to argue about.


Bill

PS: I like Big Macs. But I love Burger King's Whopper with cheese. Trouble is as far as fast food goes, Mickey D's makes the best French fries in the world. But Mickey D's does not sell Doctor Pepper, While Wendy's does. Makes for a confusing food run when we are in the mood for it.



(Message edited by Tamaroa on November 13, 2003)

[hawglips]

Neil, thanks for your response.

If I read you correctly, you seem to be saying that the reason for not letting the seceders go, is that States voluntarily gave up the right to govern themselves once they ratified the Constitution, and thereby became subject to the will of the Federal majority on whatever matters were deemed by that majority "to promote the general welfare," etc., no matter what, at the penalty of death. And if a State ever feels things have progressed to an intolerable point injurious to their interests, that it really boils down to "might makes right" with the ultimate authority being the bayonet and cannon.

I wonder how many States would have ratified the Constitution had they known that was the deal?

I am fairly certain the document would have received zero signatures.

Hal

I'm back...and doing ok. Yes I have been known to Drink hot Dr. Pepper. With lemon...even dropped a cinnamon stick in a time or two. Of course, Coke, Pepsi, RC Cola, 7 up, and Dr Pepper are all Southern drinks. Just Dr Pepper is the oldest soft drink we got and I am a traditionalist at heart. traditionalist heart but don't ask me about my kidneys lol) Of course the best things to mix with these drinks are also Southern. Although I no longer drink suck libations.

Hal,
I think that is an excellent question. One that indeed did worry Jefferson. The fact must have been, if the States had known, they would not have ratified it. They would been fools to do so. As it is we are locked into a deal now where there in no recourse. Forced into the deal after being destroyed after 4 years of combat to resist such a deal. Revolution is not even a possibility now. Not with the thought police in control.

Oh.....and..Welcome to the boards.

YMOS
tommy

[unionblue]

Hal,

The fact of the matter is, Hal, and again, its just my opinion, the states DID know when they signed the Constitution that they were trying to form 'a more perfect Union' and that they WERE giving up certain rights originally theirs to achieve that Union. These men were not stupid or blind (maybe a bit drunk, as the drinking at the time would have killed a mule) but, as it has been stated, the cream of their colonies. The signing of that document was done with all eyes open and you should not be surprised at the number of signatures on it.

Time and time again, from the signing of the Constitution until the Civil War, in the Supreme Court, in the Congress, in newspapers, NORTH & SOUTH, east & west, secession was called 'wrong' or 'treason' or just plain stupid. No one was in shock when the rest of the Nation raised objections over the idea of the South 'just leaving' and breaking the law.

And Hal, I think that if the States who had such problems with the Union had addressed those concerns before the Court or called for a national assembly or referendum, they might have exercised a legal right or vote to get out of the Union peaceably. But they knew they could not win by legal or Constitutional means, so THEY choose violence, and please don't let me hear the cry they were trying 'peaceable secession'! Even those men at the time did not believe they would have that, as they secretly did everything to cripple the national army, strip it of arms and weapons and send them South for the conflict they KNEW would come.

Tommy,

Good to see you back and glad of it I am, you rebel pain in the butt! And right off the bat with a statement I cannot accept or buy, 'thought police in control!' If the American people ever decided that they had had enough of their present form of government, it would disappear in fire and blood, with not one stone of the Capitol building standing on one another and the White House a burned out shell.

It's getting their attention that is the trick. Something like the sinking of a passenger liner or maybe an attack on a Naval harbor someplace. Something like that. Slow to anger may be a trait of ours, but God help the poor slob does get our attention.

And HOT Dr. Pepper? With a cinnamon stick? No wonder you folks in the South are so touchy! Too much hot sugar and all, if you ask me!

Bill,

I'll try to be less succinct, but it's hard when you know folks like the same, trashy fast food you do!

YMOS,
Unionblue