Was War Necessary After Secession?

[unionblue]

Hal,

Why do you think that there was no reason for the war?

Unionblue

[hawglips]

Neil, I think that the question should be, what good reason was there for war? Why not just let the seceders go?

Hal

[thea_447]

Ah, we may have a voice of reason here...yes, Neil, I'd like to hear you answer that too. Why not just let them go?

[unionblue]

Hal & Thea,

Forgive me for being late with my answer as I was out of town over the long weekend.

I am going to do something a bit unusual for me and not refer to any notes, books or other research and try to answer you, Hal, from my heart and my convictions. Why not let the South go you ask? Well, here goes;

The law for one thing. Everyone seems to forget this one point and tends to label the North the aggressor in the War of Rebellion. In my opinion, such as it is on this board, certain persons who resided in the South broke the law. Mainly, the rule of law, the idea that disputes could be settled peaceably in court or by the democratic process in Congress or the ballot box.

Time and time again, I hear that secession was a 'legal' a 'peaceable' way of leaving the Union. That somehow, the Constitution of the United States, was somehow just an agreement or contract drawn up by some lawyers to be followed until one or several of the signers got ****ed and decided to leave. I don't buy it.

Some say that the minority, those certain persons in the South, left the Union in order to protect the rights of that minority from the tryanny of the majority and yet, the minute they seceeded, they violated the rights of their own minority, those who did not want to leave the Union, and over 400,000 white Southerners, fought for the Union, so that theory was a lie.

How about the law that all in the Union would abide by the legal results of an election? True, Lincoln was a minority President, but he won the largest amount of the popular vote and the electoral votes and there had been minority Presidents before, some from the South for that matter.

Thea and Tommy have said many times that the North did not go to war over slavery and that is true. The majority of men in the Union Army would have told you, and they do mention the fact many times in their letters home, that they were fighting to uphold the law. When I first got interested in the Civil War, that puzzled me a bit, as I thought the war WAS about slavery. As so no one is confused about my convictions (Tommy & Thea) I now know the South left the Union on the issue of slavery and hence I consider it THE cause of the war.

But in those first few months and years before the Emancipation Proclamation, the typical Union man fought to uphold the law.

And how about theft, Hal? Not just the theft of property that belonged to ALL the nation, such as forts, arsenals, mints, ships, dock yards, custom houses, post offices, ware houses and such.

How about the theft of an idea? The theft that the majority of a people could decide their fate, their leaders and their destiny? How about the theft of security in a world hostile to the idea that common men could decide their future, instead of a 'divine right' of kings or class? Why risk their children's future and their children's children on the whims of a few men determined to have their own way and the hell with the rest of the country?

And how about the idea of upholding one's oath of office? All those men who were still serving in the Federal government who had sworn to uphold the Constitution and their government, who betrayed it by secretly shipping arms of war to those trying to subvert the nation? Isn't that against the law somewhere? Doesn't that put the entire nation at risk? And why do it if you are going to have 'peaceable secession?' You want to know why, Hal? Because you know its wrong and you know its treason and against the law.

I believe firmly the South had complaints and it felt wronged in many cases. I also know that when the South had the Presidency and a majority in the Congress and the Senate, it decried the idea of secession when New England contemplated the idea during the War of 1812. I know the North, for the longest time, under protest, had to comply with legislation, actions and laws that favored the South and they did so.

I keep talking about those 'certain persons' in the South that broke the law and tried to murder an idea, an idea that has grown to encompass much of the world and given it hope for a better future. Yes, Hal, I consider the Civil War a terrible war, a tragedy, an avoidable one, if those certain persons had stayed true to the spirit and the law of the Constitution, binding us all together by the law.

If secession had suceeded, I believe this continent would be balkanized into a dozen or more little, squabbling little kingdoms, territories and spheres of influence ruled by foreign powers, with more deaths resulting than the War itself. And peace just a memory and the rule of law a joke.

There it is, Hal, my reasons for why we could not 'let them go.' We could no more let go of the South than my lungs if they were infected with cancer. I would fight with my last breath to keep them, insist that the doctors cut, probe, use chemo, whatever to hang onto them. For without them, I would die.

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on November 11, 2003)

Errrrr Neil, you know I love you like a brother...so you know I say this with a certain amount of reservation. Your lung cancer analogy was not your best. Tis really grim. It made me feel that the South was a cancer to be excised. To be warred upon with NBC warfare. That only the parts of that benefit the North should be left, the rest is no good to you so therefore must be destroyed....Really grim....

You know I hope this is an honest criticism and not an attack?

BTW I was wondering were you were. Just on the border of worry.

On a lighter know I go into the hospital in....hmmm.....5 hours. So if I am away from the boards for a few days you know why. It ain’t cause I’m sulking.

My thoughts on this are the State’s were sovereign. Just as a citizen my soul is my own. For good or ill. I believe though, that war was literally forced upon the South. They were already under attack. Already economic warfare was being waged upon them. The propaganda for open bloodshed was rampant and endorsed by the President’s Party.

I simply believe that by giving such power to the Federal Government, instead of freeing a race enslaved they instead enslaved a nation.

YMOS
tommy

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Might I ask why you are going to the hospital? And of course I know this is honest criticism from you and never an attack, even when we both are hot and heavy in our debates, as we sometimes get.

I believe you and support your contention that your soul is your own, for good or for ill. But your body, for good or ill, must get along in the company of other human beings and their bodies. For the good of the whole, sometimes you must give up something. Law is the grease that keeps those bodies from burning out.

I too, believe that war was forced upon the majority of the South by selfish men in power who wrongly judged the results of their actions, who wanted class distinctions and separations kept intact and who on the whole, mistrusted the common man to decide things for himself.

And my brother in debate, whom I consider such a dear friend and such a part of my life now, you know I don't believe in one nickel's worth about economic warfare being waged upon the South as any excuse for the war. And this I even believe more firmly, the propaganda was just as rampant and wild by those advocating secession as the opinions expressed by their Southern commissioners in the days leading up to the war. What's the phrase? "Lies, ****ed lies."

I believe that freedom was assured once the war was over and that rule of law was maintained.

As for my lung cancer example, I'm tired from working on my cabin all weekend and I am rather sleepy getting back on this midnight schedule! I'll try to do better in future and I pray with all my heart and soul that you are there to debate me.

Take care dear friend,
Unionblue

Neil,
The referrals have finally arrived. After ...well....it was last December my Doctor said she’s get on it, Tenncare has finally approved it. I am to be scoped both ways and several various biopsies will be taken from my lymph nodes again. Since I have serious problems with anesthesia they are going to admit me as a precaution. I have had all the procedures before and the consequences were quite dire. On the other hand, there is obviously a problem and this is the only route to solving the mystery. Lol you would be amazed at the places lymph nodes can swell. But confidence is high. I hope to be back online by tomorrow night or the next. If I am lucky I might even be out by tonight. They won’t keep me any longer than absolutely needed.

YMOS
tommy

[unionblue]

Tommy,

You will be in my prayers and my thoughts until you return, whereupon I intend to complete your full conversion to the side of 'True Blue.'

So, I need a challenge to fully motivate me, so I am electing you. You wouldn't want me to go after Thea full bore, would you? So I'm choosing you as my personal cause.

Now you HAVE to come back, if only to shatter my fervent hopes.

Good luck, my rebel brother.

Unionblue

Neil,

As our friends from Oz say, “No worries.” Like MacArthur, I will return. Yet remember, even if I am not around physically, you are still arguing with me. I will always remain in spirit. Always here waving the paradoxical CBF flag of pride and freedom. Showing it takes two to tango. Attacking wherever I see a sign of weakness. Just as when I am away from the boards...I hear you, like Darth Vader..."Come to the dark side".....

I am not allowed to drink anything after midnight....my goodness...the thirst is driving me mad. I KNOW it is all in my head as I gorged myself only 3 hours ago...but still....arrrghh... can’t wait til it is all over. I will drink til I burst.

YMOS
tommy

[unionblue]

Tommy,

What will you drink? (Sensing a chance here!)

Unionblue