Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I can only come back to what actions were taken place by Seward to put this quote into action? How far did he get in fighting a war for Canada, or with Spain during the Civil War?
Then we keep coming back to the recorded actions of those in the South who DID take action to aquire territory in the name of expanding slavery.
At least, that is how I see it. Got any examples of actual Northern invasion, backed up by official government, state or national, that the Southern incidents provide?
Soncerely,
Unionblue
PS Was it a neat tour of the castle?
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Ok, first off, you do not have to colonize a country to control it. They learned really early that the most economical way was to simply dominate it with intimidating force and use troops to protect US “interests.” That way you do not have the day-to-day burden of actually running the country. Just reaping benefits.
I chose to list only the years of the US’s mucking with other countries to force them to our will, rather than their own, that occurred in my grandfather’s lifetime, starting with the War between the States.
Also, I did not list the genocide of the American Indian. You can pretty much take it for granted they were getting screwed pretty much constantly.
This is not a complete list but just some of the more egregious actions. *Note of little consequence* I had two uncles that participated in several of the Mexican expeditions and in the Philipines among others. *
1863-Japan - On July 16, US forces attacked Shimonoseki, Japan, to avenge an insult to the American flag. The attacking troops were from the USS Wyoming.
1864-Japan - US forces were used to intimidate and extort concessions demanded by the US Minister to Japan against Yedo. The campaign lasted from July 14 to August 3.
1865-Panama - US troops land March 9 and 10 to enforce US interests during a coup d'tat
1866-Mexico - In an act of unjustified aggression, US troops under General Sedgewick, took the Mexican city of Matamoras in November. In three days the US troops were ordered to withdraw and the President of the United States repudiated this attack
Midway Islands - On August 28, Captain William Reynolds of the Lackawanna took formal possession of these islands for the U.S.
1868-Japan - US forces made numerous landings in Japan to enforce American interests, mainly February 4-8, April 4 through May 12, and June 12-13 at Osaka, Hiogo, Nagasaki, Yokohama, and Negata. This was during the Japanese civil war which abolished the shogunate and restored the Mikado.
Uruguay - US forces landed to protect Westerners and took over the customhouse at Montevideo during an insurrection. US troops remain in Montevideo February 7-8 and 19-26.
Columbia - US troops landed on April 7 at Aspinwall to protect the transit of treasure in the absence of local police on the occassion of the Columbian President's death.
1870-Panama - On February 22, a US naval force comprising the USS Nipsic, the USS Nyack and the USS Guard raided Panama at Caldonia Bay to survey the Isthmus of Darien for a canal. This operation was known as the "Darien Expedition" and commanded by Commander Thomas O. Selfridge Jr.
1873-Columbia, Bay of Panama - US forces entered the area May 7 through 22 and again September 23 to October 9 to protect American economic interests during hostilities over control of the government of the State of Panama.
1874-Kingdom of Hawaii - US troops landed February 12 through 20, to enforce American interests in the Kingdom during the inauguration of a new king.
China - On May 3, US troops landed at Shanghai to protect American interests at the International Settlement.
1875-Mexico - In the cross border raids in pursuit of bandits that began in 1873, a major incident happened at Las Cuevas in 1875.
1876-Mexico - On May 18, US troops took over the administration of the city of Matamoras.
1882-Egypt - US forces landed to enforce American interests during fighting between the native Arabs of Egypt and the British.
1885-Panama - US troops landed at Colon on January 18 to 19 to guard US property being transported on the Panama Railroad during popular unrest.
1888-Samoa - US troops land in Samoa to protect the American consulate and American residents during a Samoan civil war on November 14. They stay until March 20, 1889
Korea - On June 19, US troops from the USS Essex attacked Korea at Chemalpo
1889-Kingdom of Hawaii - A US force was dispatched Honolulu on July 30 and 31 in support of US plantation owners who sponsored a revolt against the Hawaiian government.
Samoa - The US military deployment to Samoa which began in 1888 continued until March 20.
1890-Haiti - US forces are deployed to Haiti to enforce American interests and protect American residents on Navassa Island during a period of black unrest
1891-Chile - From August 28 to August 30 a US military force landed at Valparaiso, Chile, to protect the American consulate during a period of unrest
1893-Independent Hawaii - US troops are dispatched to Hawaii to support the provisional government of Sanford B. Dole against the native Hawaiians. Dole and the other American sugar growers had earlier overthrown the native Hawaiian monarchy. US troops remained in Hawaii from January 16 to April 1.
China - US troops from the USS Baltimore attacked Chefoo, China.
1894-Nicaragua - US troops landed in Nicaragua on July 6 and stayed until August 7 ostensibly to enforce US interests at Bluefields during a revolution.
Korea - US forces landed a Seoul, Korea, to enforce US interests during and following the Sino-Japanese War. The original forces were scaled down after 1894, but a force of US Marines remained at the US legation in Seoul until April, 1896.
1895-Columbia - During March 8 through 9 US troops land at Bocas del Toro to protect American interests during an attack on the town by a Columbian bandit.
Korea - Most of the US troops sent to Korea in 1894 are withdrawn, but a force of US Marines remains at the US legation in Seoul until 1896.
China - The US troops stationed at Tientsin and Newchwang in China are finally removed with the end of the Sino-Japanese War.
1896-Nicaragua - US troops land to enforce American interests at Corinto during a period of unrest. The troops from the USS Alert landed on May 2 and left on May 4.
Korea - The US Marine force at the US legation in Seoul that remained after the US deployment to Korea in 1894 is finally withdrawn
1898-Spain - The Spanish-American War. Spain withdrew from Cuba and ceded Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines to the United States.
Nicaragua - US troops from the USS Alert fought rebels in Nicargua in February.
China - On November 5 US troops were dispatched to the US legation at Peking and the US consulate at Tientsin to serve as a protection force during Chinese unrest.
Nicaragua - US troops from the USS Marietta land at San Juan del Norte and Bluefields to enforce American interests during the revolt of General Juan P. Reyes.
1899-Philippines - In the wake of the Spanish-American War and the ceding of the Philippines to the United States, the Filipinos, demanding their independence, revolt. Large numbers of US forces are used to crush the native revolt and the war lasts until 1902. The Filipinos, under Emilio Aguinaldo had supported the Americans against Spain, but when the terms of the peace treaty were made known, the Filipinos turned against the United States, their new imperialist overlords. Hostilities began in February. On February 22, US troops from the USS Petrel fought at Cebu City. A major month long battle developed when US troops from the USS Bennington landed at Malabon. Another major engagement was at Samoa (in the Philippines). US forces from the USS Monadnock and USS Helena landed on Baker Island on July 13. On September 12, more US troops landed from the USS Pampanga at Cebu City. On September 14, US forces from the USS Charleston fight at Subic Bay. At the Battle of Olongapo, US forces from the USS Charleston, USS Concord, USS Monterey, and the USS Zaffiro landed. In October US troops from the USS Baltimore landed at Imus and Noveleta.
Samoa - US troops land in Samoa to enforce US interests and end up taking part in a bloody conflict over the royal succession on the island.
China - The US forces dispatched to Tientsin and Peking in 1898 were withdrawn from China on March 15, 1899.
1900-Philippines - The US war to crush the Filipino independence movement continues. US troops from the USS Baltimore fought at Olongapo (Feb. 16-17). US troops from the USS Pampanga at Santa Margarita, Leyte Island, on April 25. Among the US forces fighting at Hilongas on May 6, one US soldier won the Medal of Honor. On July 16 troops from the USS Pampanga fought on Samar Island.
China - Boxer Rebellion
Wake Islands - Commander Taussig of the USS Bennington formally takes over the Wake Islands for the United States.
1901-Philippines - The Filipino war against American imperialism continued. The Filipino leader, Emilio Aguinaldo was captured in March, but it wasn't until April of 1902 that the United States finally managed to crush the Filipino resistance.
Columbia, State of Panama - US troops land to protect US financial interests and keep transit lines open during serious revolutionary disturbances, November 20 to December 4. The troops from the USS Iowa and the USS Machias actively suppressed popular Panamanian demonstrations.
1902-Philippines - The Filipinos insurrection against US imperialism is finally crushed by US forces in April. From the start of the insurrection in 1899, the US employed more than 60,000 troops in the Philippines in order to crush the Filipino independence movement.
Panama - US forces from the USS Panther land on April 16 and stay until April 23 at Bocas del Toro during civil strife to actively suppress expressions of popular discontent.
Columbia, State of Panama - US troops land on September 17 and stay until November 18 to keep railroad lines open.
1903-Panama - Once negotiations with Colombia collapsed over Panama, ten US warships aided a Panamanian rebellion against Colombia, resulting in the de jure independence of Panama, although in reality the state remained a US asset until 1999. US troops were landed on November 4, 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
Honduras - US troops landed March 23 and stayed until March 31 to protect the US consulate and steamship wharf at Puerto Cortez during a period of revolutionary activity.
Domincan Republic - US troops arrived on March 30 and stayed until April 21 to enforce US interests against a popular revolt.
Ottoman Syria - US troops landed on September 7 and stayed until September 12 to protect the US consulate in Beirut when a Arab revolt was anticipated.
Panama - Once negotiations with Colombia collapsed over Panama, ten US warships aided a Panamanian rebellion against Colombia, resulting in the de jure independence of Panama, although in reality the state remained a US asset until 1999. US troops were landed on November 4, 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1904-Honduras - US troops landed March 23 and stayed until March 31 to protect the US consulate and steamship wharf at Puerto Cortez during a period of revolutionary activity.
Domincan Republic - US troops arrived on March 30 and stayed until April 21 to enforce US interests against a popular revolt.
1905-Mexico - US marines aided Mexican dictator Porfirio Dííaz in crushing a worker's strike at Sonora, Mexico.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
Korea - The US troops that were sent to Seoul in 1904 remained until November 11, 1905.
Honduras - US troops land in Honduras in the first of five interventions over the next twenty years.
1906-Cuba - US troops occupied Cuba to "restore order and establish a stable government" against a popular insurrection on September 6. They remained until 1909.
Philippines - US troops from the USS Pampanga fought pro-independence insurgents against the American colonial regime on Jolo Island. One US soldier was awarded the Medal of Honor.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1907-Cuba - US troops occupied Cuba to "restore order and establish a stable government" against a popular insurrection in 1906. They remained until 1909.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
Honduras - US troops landed to enforce US interests during a war between Honduras and Nicaragua. US forces were stationed at Trujillo, Ceiba, Puerto Cortez, San Pedro, Laguna, and Choloma. US forces remained in Honduras from March 18 to June 8.
1908-Cuba - US troops occupied Cuba to "restore order and establish a stable government" against a popular insurrection in 1906. They remained until 1909.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1909-Nicaragua - After liberal president Joséé Santos Zelaya has the audacity to propose that American mining and fruit companies in Nicaragua be required to pay taxes, and worse, refused to do business exclusively with American firms, opting to allow European firms into Nicaragua - the US forces him to resign through threat of force. He is replaced by Adolfo Dííaz, who before his career as an American puppet president was the treasurer of one of the major American mining firms in Nicaragua.
Cuba - The US troops that occupied Cuba to "restore order and establish a stable government" against a popular insurrection in 1906. Finally left in January, 1909.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1910-Nicaragua - US forces were landed to gather intelligence, protect Bluefields, and reinforce the US installed Diaz regime (see 1909) against a popular insurrection.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1911-Honduras - US troops land in Honduras in support of former president Manuel Bonilla against the legitimate regime of Miguel Dáávila, whose liberalism was opposed by Washington. Bonilla's revolt was financed by American banana tycoon Sam Zemurray and led by the American mercenary, Lee Christmas, who became Commander-in-Chief of the Honduran Army.
Philippines - A large force of US troops landed to fight insurgents against the American colonial regime at Basilan. Five US troops were awarded Medals of Honor.
China - US forces land at various locations to guard US property, protect westerners, and enforce US interests. Troops were stationed at Wuchang, Hnakow, the US cable station at Shanghai, Nanking, Chinkiang, Taku, and elsewhere.
1912-Nicaragua - US troops land to enforce American interests during an attempted revolution against the US installed Diaz regime (see 1909). However, US forces remain in Nicaragua until 1925 charged with "promoting peace and government stability." This peace promotion and government stability work involved the US recognizing a show election in which only 4,000 Nicaraguans - all pro-Americans - are recognized as eligible voters and then voting in an election in which only the US backed Diaz was allowed to stand.
Honduras - US troops land to maintain US control over an American owned railroad at Puerto Cortez.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
Cuba - US troops land at Kentucky Island (August 24-26) and Camp Nicholson (August 26-30) to enforce US interests by crushing a revolt mistreated and heavily exploited sugar workers.
1913-Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal
1914-Mexico - Mexican refusal to salute the U.S. flag provokes the shelling of Veracruz by a U.S. battleship and the seizure of parts of the city by U.S. Marines. The entire American Atlantic fleet provided troops to create the Naval Brigade, comprised of the 1st & 2nd Seaman's Regiments for the amphibious invasion which was launched on April 22. After three days of fighting 15 US troops were killed and 56 wounded. 28 Medals of Honor were awarded to US troops. This US attack on mexico results in the resignation of Mexican President Victoriano Huerta who was viewed as troublesome to Washington.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Haiti - US troops made three landings in Haiti (Jan. 29-Feb. 9; Feb. 20-21; Oct. 19) to protect US nationals and interests in the face of civil unrest.
Dominican Republic - During a revolution not supported by the US, US naval forces relieved the bombardment of Puerto Plata by threat of force and maintained Santo Domingo as a neutral zone. These operations were in June and July.
Panama - US troops were landed in 1903 and stayed until January 21, 1914 to enforce US interests and oversee the construction of the Panama Canal.
1915-Haiti - US troops land on July 18 to suppress a popular insurrection and remain in Haiti until 1934, turning Haiti into an American protectorate. The US installed president of Haiti was banned from the U.S. Officers' Club in Port-au-Prince because he was black.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
1916-Dominican Republic - US troops landed in May to suppress a popular insurrection and stayed until 1924. The troops were from the USS Castoria and the USS Prairie.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Mexico - In the sole act of aggression by Latin America against the United States, Pancho Villa attacked Columbus, New Mexico, killing 17 Americans. US troops immediate respond.
1917-Cuba - US troops landed to enforce American interests - securing the delivery of Cuban sugar to the US during World War I. Most of the US forces left in 1919, however a small force (two companies) remained at Camaguey until 1922.
Mexico - US troops raid into Mexico in pursuit of Pancho Villa but fail to catch him.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
1918-Mexico - In August US and Mexican troops fought at Nogales as the Mexicans attempted to stop a US raid into Mexico. US forces raided into Mexico at least three times in 1918.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Panama - US troops landed in Panama for "police duty" during election difficulties and to suppress popular unrest and remained there until 1920. In fact they established a US military occupation of the province of Chiriqui.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
1919-Mexico - US troops raided in Mexico at least six times in 1919, but unlike 1918 there were no fire fights between US and Mexican troops.
Honduras - US troops landed briefly, September 8 to 12, to maintain order in a neutral zone during political unrest.
Cuba - Most of the US troops landed in Cuba in 1917 were removed by August 1919, although two companies of soldiers remained at Camaguey until 1922.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Panama - The US troops that landed in Panama for "police duty" during election difficulties and to suppress popular unrest in 1918 remained there until 1920. In fact they established a US military occupation of the province of Chiriqui.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
1920-Guatemala - US troops landed in Guatemala to enforce US interests and protect US property, such as the US legation and the US cable station, during fighting between the government and organized labor.
China - A US force landed in China to protect Westerners during a disturbance in Kluklang on March 14.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
Panama - The US troops that landed in Panama for "police duty" during election difficulties and to suppress popular unrest in 1918 finally left in 1920. In fact they established a US military occupation of the province of Chiriqui.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Cuba - The two companies of US troops at Camaguey that were left behind after the major withdrawal in 1919 remained until 1922.
1921-Guatemala - US President Calvin Coolidge incites Guatemalan rebels to overthrow President Carlos Herrera in the interests of the United Fruit Company
Panama - US naval forces demonstrated off the coast. The show of force was meant to warn Panama against going to war with Costa Rica over a border dispute.
Costa Rica - US naval forces demonstrated off the coast. The show of force was meant to warn Costa Rica against going to war with Panama over a border dispute.
Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
China - The US Navy created the Yangtze River Patrol Force under the Asiatic fleet on May 5.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Cuba - The two companies of US troops at Camaguey that were left behind after the major withdrawal in 1919 remained until 1922.
1922-Haiti - The US troops that landed in Haiti 1915 to suppress a popular insurrection remained in Haiti until 1934.
Nicaragua - The US troops deployed to Nicaragua in 1912 to "promote peace and government stability" remained in the country until 1925.
Dominican Republic - The US occupation that began in 1916 was maintained until 1924.
Cuba - The two companies of US troops at Camaguey that were left behind after the major withdrawal in 1919 finally left Cuba in February, 1922.
Kingman Reef - On May 10 the US annexed Kingman Reef
An excellent post and most informative and how it must have cost you in the way of computer time and effort! Do you have that beast under control yet?
Most of the above actions by the United States military in South America and the Philippines after the Civil War are known to me.
My Grandfather was in the US Navy on a 'four stacker' destroyer in the 1920's and was part of the US Forces that went ashore armed with Springfield rifles in whale boasts. He helped in 'projecting' or 'showing the flag' as it was called in his time, and keeping things calm for US business interests in the region. He used to tell me stories about his time in the navy and some of them were about the actions you describe above. He and others from his crew were part of a squad or such that was detailed to go ashore and enforce US policy. Not a proud time in our history, but part of it, never the less.
My query to Bill was more in line with what Northern interests had done to acquire territory, like the South had tried to do in the years leading up to the Civil War. I notice you list three incidents, beginning in 1863 & 1864 in Japan and then Panama in 1865. From what I gather, no territory was taken or held on to. I am not disagreeing with you that these actions did not get their point across, but I hope you see where I was coming from with Bill.
While I agree with your premise that one does not have to invade and conquer a territory to dominate it, this does not alter the fact that the South tried to actually take territory for the expansion of slavery, prior to the Civil War. I seem to remember Lincoln telling Seward one war at a time or some such, even to the point of avoiding conflict with the French who were invading Mexico at the time if my memory serves.
Now, I know of the border disputes with Canada over Oregon '54 40 or fight' and of adjustments to Maine's border also, but my point is, no actual territory was taken by the sword, if my memory serves me. As for all the actions to follow the Civil War in those parts of South America and the World you list above, again, a shameful period in our time where big business and American interests were put above other nations interests.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
(Message edited by Unionblue on July 02, 2004)
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Neil,
It is my understanding you are pointing out what private citizens such as Walker did as proof of the South's intentions. While limiting the Federalist’s victor’s actions to a Very narrow period of years. I am just pointing out what the Republican victors actually did with their victory. What the Republican party in control of America actually did. Not talked about or attempted or hypothesized or desired.... But Did. You are seeming to desire to limit what the Federalists did to only the war years.
Your condemnation of the South’s support of private individuals who were filibustering and what they may or may not have done if they had won while dismissing or minimizing the comparison of the bulk of the Federal’s victors actions seems difficult to find digestable. Seems to me to be a classic case of Pot Kettle Black.
My point is the Republican Nation that was formed did far more than some individual freebooters could have ever done. I thought I provided ample proof of that.
As to your claim no actual territory taken by the sword. Well, there were a quite of few Indian tribes that would disagree with that.
But no less important, I seem to recall.....there were 11 states of considerable territory that were indeed taken by the sword.
I am pointing out more than just private citizens like Walker. I am talking mainly about the Civil War period and just before the Civil War. It is not what I consider a narrow view or the pot calling the kettle black as we are on a Civil War Board. I acknowledge the US government after the war, with Republican administrations, did some stupid and terrible things in South America and other parts of the world. I conclude that is why we gringos are not much loved south of the border.
And I am not talking about theory or rumor, but actual events carried out by State and Federal government officials in support of the South's efforts to take territory for the spreading of slavery before and during the war.
I agree totally with your view on the plight of the Indian nations and the Federal governments ill treatment of those nations.
As for eleven States in rebellion being returned to the Union and being done so by the sword, I will agree with that statement, but again, it is only my opinion.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Your last reply to me, and those you sent to Tommy, raise some really interesting questions.
Let’s start with your reference to “the South's efforts to take territory for the spreading of slavery”. I do have a problem with the concept of “The South” doing anything before 1861. It suggests a hegemony which I simply don’t believe existed. If the region which subsequently comprised the Confederacy was capable of conspiracy and concerted action before the war, how come the various states did not secede virtually simultaneously? Instead, their departure from the Union was spread over a period of several months and seems to have been in response to various different stimuli.
As for the Slave Power conspiring to acquire Mexican territory, it seems reasonable to ask why John C. Calhoun opposed the war if that was its purpose. In his history of the American South, Monroe Lee Billington writes:
Provocation of the war for more territory may fairly be laid at Polk’s door, but to acquire this land for the extension of slavery was not in the President’s mind. Most of the territory in question was unsuited for slavery, and many of the staunchest defenders of slavery were opposed to the war and to the acquisition of more territory. For example, John C. Calhoun voted against the declaration of war. John A. Campbell of Alabama, who later became a justice of the United States Supreme Court, reasoned that any large acquisition of Mexican land by the United States would upset the balance of power in the nation to the disadvantage of the South. He based his conclusion on the belief that the area was entirely unfit for slavery, and that expansion would therefore result in an increase of nonslaveholding states and a corresponding abatement of slave state strength. Even though the war and the acquisition of additional territory were not the products of a proslavery conspiracy, northern whigs found it good politics to make the charge…
As far as the filibusterers are concerned, I am not convinced that the South can be held collectively responsible for the actions of a few mavericks. If it can, then the North is quite clearly accountable for the bloody butchery of John Brown.
What interests me most, however, is your suggestion that the South is open to reproach for even wanting to engineer the creation of new slave states. As you put it,
I do tend to see the South and its leaders fixated on expanding the power and territory of the South in order to expand the institution of slavery at the expense of the rest of the country and it's feelings and desires.
I’d like to make two points. The first is that the use of the term “rest of the country” is a little naughty. A more appropriate term would be either “the rival region” or “the North”. I might just as well state that the tariff subsidised greedy or inefficient Northern manufacturers at the expense of “the rest of the country”.
The other is that the creation of slave states was the means by which the South tried to maintain parity with the North, in terms of political power, while the latter engineered the creation of free states. You seem to be suggesting that it was wrong of Southerners even to try to maintain that parity. In other words, they were morally obliged to cede power to the North. That argument seems neither realistic nor reasonable. Have I misunderstood you?
Please read from page 4, paragraph two and then come back to me.
I've written my guts out tonight and cannot put forth a greater effort.
My apologies,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I read the whole of Mr Starr’s article, and I thank you for drawing it to my attention.
I must confess that the copyright mark dated 2000 caught my eye rather more effectively than the reference to the centenary of the Civil War, and so I thought I was reading something which was only four years old. I was, therefore, dismayed when Mr Starr’s thoughtful analysis of the trends in Civil War scholarship was followed by his own views, which struck me as over-emotional, bad-tempered and veering on self-parody. My irritation evaporated when I realised he was writing in 1965: in truth, Mr Starr was arguing with Governor Wallace rather than presenting an analysis of the causes of the Civil War which are worthy of our consideration in 2004. That’s my personal opinion, and I’ll give you just a few examples of why I don’t find his arguments at all compelling – or even particularly interesting.
1. He refers to the disappearance of abolitionist societies in the South, and an accompanying rise in the levels of violence offered to anti-slavery activists, but does not bother to explain why these two things happened.
2. He cites heavy punishments handed down in Southern courts without
drawing comparison to the penal codes in force in Northern states; he thus deliberately (it seems to me) robs this evidence of its context and so renders it meaningless
3. He states that “for every antislavery fanatic in the North, there were dozens of proslavery fanatics in the South.” How did he arrive at such a conclusion? Where is the supporting evidence? This is not a reasoned argument; it is a bald assertion.
4. “The abolitionist fanatics, never more than a tiny minority, did not control the politics or even the public opinion of the North.” As far as public opinion is concerned, this is another mere assertion.
5. “The proslavery fanatics, on the other hand,, did control both public opinion and politics in the South.” So every leading politician in the pre-war South was a fanatic?
6. “Better to wreck the government altogether than to surrender a control which, in a democratic framework, could no longer be maintained or justified.” Once again we come up against the tired old argument that Southern secession would wreck the U.S. government. Not a shred of evidence is produced to support this (it seems to me) rather hysterical claim. What makes it all the more absurd is that Starr has spent the preceding paragraph delighting in Southern inferiority to the North in terms of industrialization, wealth and
progressive tendencies in general. He does not explain why the loss of a region which he clearly despises would prove fatal to the remaining United States.
7. He quotes Southern insults about Northern “mongrels and hirelings” but makes no mention of the far worse things which abolitionists said and wrote about Southerners. By this point the absence of even-handedness has ceased to be irritating and has instead become laughable.
In an article which is not excessively long, the author manages to cram in the following terms descriptive of the South and Southerners:
“arrogance”, “an inconceivable degree of self-delusion and a pathological unwillingness to deal with reality”, “not at all averse to a little bloodletting”, “coercion, intimidation and mob action”, “vicious”, “demagogy, bombast, irresponsibility, incompetence, a childish refusal to come to grips with realities, and a habitual substitution of slogans, symbols and bogeymen for facts”, “wanton and provocative”, “taken leave of its senses”, “political ineptitude, the habitual misreading of the minds of opponents, the misjudging of the practical possibilities of a given situation, the purposeless striving for effect, the substitution of arrogance and threats for rational discussion”, “lawlessness and stupidity”, “frenzied maneuvers”, “the stagnant, sterile existence of the South”, “a closed society and…an iron curtain”, “inferiority complex”, “tries to make up for its own sins of omission and commission by name-calling, by nursing an exaggerated pride and sensitiveness, and by cultivating a reckless aggressiveness as a substitute for reason”, “fundamentally irrational”, “pathological fanaticism”, “the brutalities that are a commonplace of daily life in Alabama, the vicious police state that Mississippians manage to equate with freedom, democracy and decency”, and “another midnight bombing committed by the heroic descendants of the Confederacy”.
Phew. A simple foreigner cannot help asking why, if Mr. Starr felt like this about the Americans who live in certain states, he and his kind were so in favour of fighting a war to keep them as their fellow-citizens against their will.
A period piece, interesting in its way; but not a serious argument.
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