Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I think we're everlastingly doomed to agree on little more than the fact that the sun rises in the east.
By the way, I am a federal employee, having decided later in life to take a job as a Navy civilian engineer (at significantly less pay, I might add) in order to be of some public service.
I won't be retiring for some years yet, but when the time comes, I plan to do so in your home town out of sheer devilment. ;o} I see it as sweet revenge for being unable to influence your opinion.
Grenadier is simply an avocation. I have no such rank, but rather take on the assignment when duty calls.
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda
- Daniel (If one were to be a grenadier, where better than the Royal Welsh Fusileers)
Psst. Daniel, the 23rd uses "c" and not "s" in spelling Welch. I've a soft spot for them too as they burned our capital and ate President Madison's dinner during the 1812 fracas. I've also been to their regimental museum in Carnavon Castle.
Interesting how you view retirees who decide to retire in the pleasant weather of the South. After 20+ years of service to the nation, much of it thankless, what more can they ask for? Beautiful weather, low taxes... low enough to stretch that thin pension a bit further. The best inticement to move there I've ever seen. I lived there too long to love it, had to go back north to live among the snows and the prarie.
I remember seeing different prices for GI's as soon as a shopkeeper spotted a crewcut. And other polite things... I'm sure many of those retirees saw the same thing, both north and south.
I met true Southern Hospitality in Charleston. A retired USAF Colonel, graduate of the Citidel gave me my first true look of the Southern Arisocracy. For the first time in my life I understood why so many young men were willing to follow men like Cleburne, Gordon & Lee into hell w/ a bucket of water and little more. With a Colonel like that leading me... the devil would get some wet.
Honesty, Integrity and a love of this country that is second to none... that is what I view the True South today as. Some of the strongest patriots of this nation I have met were young men from Texas, Alabama, NC and other southern states, their courage and conviction no different than that of 140 years ago. But the difference is now they defend a nation not built on the premise that slavery is a god given right.
I respect them and hold them close to my heart for the service they give our flag and our country. The South of the Confederacy is dead, it's now part of the United States of today and the finest country on earth. We aren't perfect, but by god we do our best.
My passions for my country are strong and my disgust for those who would spit on our flag stronger. I appreciate what this country has given me, and I give a little back through my service in the military and now in the Legion.
It is important that we honor our ancestors, respect them for what they accomplished. But to crucify them for crimes they aren't alive to refute, they can no longer face their accusers. Those that would paint a convenient picture that fits their agenda know this. It's quite easy to convict a man who cannot defend himself. I guess I'm one of those who would defend them.
This board and others has done some to educate me, I've learned alot of NB Forrest in particular and have come to the conclusion that history has given him a bad rap. I've learned a lot and hope to learn more. I appreciate honest & intelligent discourse, and will always call it as I see it.
I bid you all good day.
Anybody up for a pint?
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Gov. Francis W. Pickens of South Carolina, late Minister to Russia, dunned the United States for the $3,000 due him from his tour to Russia.
Washington sent him a draft (check) drawn on the Treasury office (in Charleston), which had already been taken over by the state.
Who said the North didn't have a sense of humor?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
What were James Madison's LAST words on the subject of secession?
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
As the Constitutional union was not put into effect by Madison, Hamilton, Jefferson, Washington, or any of the other founding fathers; but rather by the individual State conventions convened for the purpose of debating and ratifying it, one should spend the lion's share of one's mental energy seeking to understand what the people of the individual States felt and said about the subject, and the words of that Union's proponents uttered while trying to persuade their fellow citizens within those conventions.
My question remains, What were Madison's last thoughts on the subject of secession?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
A few notes on Madison's final thoughts on secession. His later years were influenced by the appeal of a larger Federal influence. This is a view that I do not hold, and never will. The Constitution itself was designed for states rights to be upheld, not for one huge conglomerate to be ruled over by a bunch of protectionist leaders whose sole aim was to accomodate big business interests rather than say, a dirt farmer's interests.
Just a bit of history leading up to Madison's final years:
During the first year of Madison's Administration, the United States prohibited trade with both Britain and France; then in May, 1810, Congress authorized trade with both, directing the President, if either would accept America's view of neutral rights, to forbid trade with the other nation.
Napoleon pretended to comply. Late in 1810, Madison proclaimed non-intercourse with Great Britain. In Congress a group including Henry Clay and John C. Calhoun, the "War Hawks," pressed the President for a more militant policy.
The British impressment of American seamen and the seizure of cargoes impelled Madison to give in to the pressure. On June 1, 1812, he asked Congress to declare war.
The nation was not prepared to fight; its forces took a severe trouncing. The British entered Washington and set fire to the White House and the Capitol.
But a few notable naval and military victories, climaxed by Gen. Andrew Jackson's triumph at New Orleans,and a lot of propaganda convinced Americans that the War of 1812 had been gloriously successful. An upsurge of nationalism resulted. The New England Federalists who had opposed the war were so thoroughly repudiated that Federalism disappeared as a national party.
In retirement at Montpelier, his estate in Virginia, Madison spoke out against the disruptive states' rights influences that by the 1830's threatened to shatter the Federal Union. In a note opened after his death in 1836, he stated, "The advice nearest to my heart and deepest in my convictions is that the Union of the States be cherished and perpetuated."
I'm quite sure you agree with his assessment, Neil, but I do not. I will always contend that the states would NEVER have entered into a compact of states if they'd not believed in their hearts that they could extricate themselves at anytime. This is precisely why the states had banded together to fight England. Why would they have changed their opinion later? The answer is: they didn't. Only the protectionists Radical Republicans who wanted the South's wealth would NOT let them leave this association. They made war on their brothers rather than allow them to leave peacefully.
Sorry if you thought I was delaying in answering you Neil. My server has been on the fritz all month. I've had a total of 7 full days that I couldn't even get on the net, much less post.
You know that I would never deliberately miss a chance to butt heads with you, my Yankee friend. My contrary little heart wouldn't beat properly if I didn't at least try to give you a bout of acid reflux.
En garde!
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
One more thing before I give up on this folly of trying to stay online tonight:
In Madison's later collection of notes, "The Vices of the Political System of the United States," he began to work out his ideas of how human nature affected government. He concluded that governments must accept the many different courses of action that humans will pursue based on what they perceive to be their self-interest. "The great desideratum in Government," wrote Madison, "is such a modification of the Sovereignty as will render it sufficiently neutral between the different interests and factions, to control one part of Society from invading the rights of another, and sufficiently controuled [sic] itself, from setting up an interest adverse to that of the whole Society. (The only problem with this idea is that Lincoln didn't consider for one moment the interests of the South, only the interests of his protectionist friends.)
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
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