Secession

[unionblue]

David,

It has been a while since I have engaged you in any sort of discussion for a while, so I would like to ask your opinion on a topic of secession, if you don't mind.

Why is it the South during the Civil War is perceived to be an innocent victim, that somehow, the reason for leaving the Union was some Constitutional, high and mighty, search for liberty and freedom, etc., when almost every declaration of secession one cares to read stems from the issue of slavery?

I really think Hal is missing my point that the bar for leaving the Union was simply not that high for the South. The only liberty I see threatened is that one to own and move slaves into the territories. Is there any merit in any other argument, in your own view?

Sincerely,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on September 24, 2004)

Dear David,


'I apologize again for the sarcasm. It's not personal; not aimed at a speaker anyway. But I have some problems with libertarian sentiments laboring to criticize historical actions.'


You think it is any different from the other side? If you have to rely on constant sarcasm that lacks any humor, then you are only going to start trouble. Knowingly. Willingly. Is that your agenda? If you have problems with what people here write or think, then deal with it. But please, if you cannot, be at least a little less sarcastic, demeaning and derogatory? What purpose are you trying to achieve? A flame war? These topics can be inflammatory and divisive on their own merits. They need no help. Yet I personally have found that attempts at civility work best if the goal is sharing ideas and hopefully learning something.. Not pointlessly trying to impress people with our sparring techniques, sarcastic bon mots, our look at me thesaurus vocabulary and linguistic gymnastics, and just trying to score points. We are not amused. That produces nothing of worth except shallow self indulgent vanity. Confrontations grow heated fast enough in debates with unnecessary fuel on the fires.

If you think this is merely ‘strident sectional perspective,’ well, so be it. But I seriously am curious as to what your goal is and how you think will achieve it. You obviously are a friend to Neil and Georgiana from other forums so I have endeavored in giving you some extra benefit of the doubt. But the insults and slander are flying a little much for me to discern what you’re here for. Perhaps if I had that enlightenment then I could conceivably figure out how to deal with it, hopefully without it developing into an eager but unnecessary conflagration.


YMOS
tommy





(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 24, 2004)

Neil,
I have sort of a question then, if I may?
How is the South reaping the rewards of slavery any different, morally, than it is today? One iota? Is the rationalization any different? You think we are somehow more socially evolved because we ended slavery within the borders of a nation forced to submit? Instead of it being right in front of us. Now it is out of sight, out of mind, no blood on my hands. There in the South, there was responsibility for the care of the slaves. There were freedmen. What do we do now? We exercise no responsibility over the slavery we benefit from. Nor do we accept our responsibility. Only concern is the bottom line. How do we rationalize that to the point of Social Darwinism and pretend we, here and now, are somehow morally superior to the South in 1860?
If you understand that, then you can understand the South in 1860. And they were no more evil than we are now in how they dealt with slavery.

(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 24, 2004)

[unionblue]

Tommy,

It (slavery) was justifiable then because it was in the open? Somehow, because it was justified in the Bible, an accepted practice it excuses it somehow?

I agree with you, slavery today is no different and needs to be stopped being supported in this nation or any other on the planet. I thank you for showing me the sites on the web that deal with slavery and its existence today. I also agree if we do nothing about it in this time because of indifference, we are no better than those who practiced it during times past.

There was a responsibility for the care of the slaves during its practice in the 19th century South? How comforting! Now, you will claim as some have done here before, that you would not mind being a slave since they had it so good? That for some reason it was better then because of this highly unenforceable and unevenly applied reason? The medical records and accounts of this care, if you please?

There were freedmen? And they were treated with the utmost respect and no concern was ever directed at them for being in such a high status? That attempts were never made to further restrict their few rights? That at even a mention at a slave revolt, they were not viewed with fear and as a possible source of that revolt?

No, slavery in this day and age that we benefit from in this time period does not give us an excuse to act superior or excuse us from doing our utmost to eradicate it. But no way does it excuse the institution as it existed in the South either. Wrong is wrong, evil is evil. Or are you going to ascribe to the idea that this institution that was somehow taking care of the slaves and providing a freedman status for a lucky few was on it's way out, even if there had been no war? Or would those excellent qualities that provided these so-called benefits would induce one to stay in a state of bondage? That this somehow reduces its corrosive and corrupt effect on both blacks and whites at the time of the Civil War?

There is some rationalization going on here, I agree. I'm just concerned about the timing of it.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Neil,
You had me until the end. Timing of it? You lost me.

Neil,
I recall a few months, last year, sometime, PBS had history detectives of a freedman in Jackson Miss. He was a freedman from Maryland. He moved to New Orleans. Started a business. Bought a few slaves, made some money and started a business in Jackson. He bought a slave he had fallen in love with in New Orleans. Settling down to living side by side with his white neighbors. To forget stories and people like this is to Not understand slavery and race relations before the war. There were as many sides to slavery as there were people. My point is they rationalised it same way we do. I'm not tryin to lay blame on ourselves today, no more than I would lay upon them then...but no less either. I am really merely trying to ....understand.

Oe thing I would point out. There were thousands of black craftsman who had made good. Success stories by almost anyone's book. None where hit harder by the reconstruction than they were. And none deserved it less.

(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 24, 2004)

[unionblue]

Tommy,

My intent was, why can we seem to rationalize slavery at that time in the South (1861-1865)? We can beat the crap out of the idea of slavery up here in the 21st century, and rightly so, but it's OK then?

That's what I mean by the timing of our rationalizations. They are out of sync.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Neil
I was trying to answer this question. To help understanding. We have sailed into countries ports and killed them. Ended human lives. Forced them to trade with us. They used slave labor. We Knew it then. We still know it.

You asked, a legitimate question.

"Why is it the South during the Civil War is perceived to be an innocent victim, that somehow, the reason for leaving the Union was some Constitutional, high and mighty, search for liberty and freedom, etc., when almost every declaration of secession one cares to read stems from the issue of slavery?"

They did it just like we do today. Right or wrong do not enter into what I am trying to illuminate. People have filters. You have mentioned many times how people just want to get on with their lives. Slavery was with them from the time they were born. As far back as time allowed. Just like now. Seriously. Look at the Hersey's commercial...where they hold up the bar and on the little square where it usually says "Hersey" they put in "Happiness."
Slavery was wrong. But so is what we have today. They dealt with it same as we are doing right now. We are just like the North was then. We sow, We reap. Someone else pays. We go about getting on with life. We move on. There is a cause around every corner. Easier to take up causes that we can reap from. Not one we might pay more for.

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Right and wrong does enter into it. Filters be ****ed as some kind of excuse. Slavery may have been with them since they were born and here I agree with you (and Lincoln, by the way) that if I had been born in the South at the time, I might have felt the same way they did. Slavery was a NATIONAL sin then, as it is one today just as it is a GLOBAL one. And because of your information on it today, I do not purchase Hersey's anymore nor do I shop at certain places either. I do what I can because I KNOW its wrong to support anything or anyone who supports slavery, no matter how gentle or kind its application.

And again I don't see how ignoring a wrong today makes it any less wrong yesterday. You're right, maybe it's not as open and maybe folks just want to get on with their lives, but it is still wrong, is it not?

But slavery had been debated from the founding of this country as a wrong thing, an evil thing. England and other countries had eliminated slavery from their countries because it was wrong. In every sense. Because of history, climate, economics, etc., slavery remained in the South. The South wanted to protect slavery at any cost. The South wanted to expand slavery at the expense at the rest of the nation and its citizens wishes and State's rights be ****ed. Yes, the filters were on then, my way, my system, my way of life and the rest of you can just lump it or we'll just leave. It wasn't just that they had the institution themselves in their own backyards. The filters then in place said they could take it anywhere no matter who objected for whatever reasons. Just as they sometimes explain now about how it is cheaper, more cost-effective and it doesn't directly effect us, but it still does not make it right. Then or now.

If we cannot learn from history and its mistakes, you're saying we are doomed to repeat them in the form of chocolate candy bars and clothing made in sweatshops from overseas? Apathy in history and current events is the answer? One wrong a 140 years ago is cancelled out because of the same wrong in this time? I'm the one who's lost and can't see it.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

Neil,
No. You are the one that sees, the rest are the ones that are lost.

I had some free trade chocolate my friend gave me last month. good stuff. Funny thing, on a 'free trade' topic. In Germany I believe, they made these free trade labels on rugs. See, the EU refuses to allow products that use any slave labor. Flat out not allowed. No ducking the issue. Anyway, the free trade labels on some rugs. The free trade labels..yep...the labels themselves, made with slave labor.

I think I just have been saying, if you want to truly understand them then, look around now.

I hate to beat a dead horse but this IS serious. Prison labor. Read the anti slavery amendment.
Amendment XIII. Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude,except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

They always have abused this. Usually on a local level. But now it is Big Business.
Look at the numbers increasing in prison. State sponsored slavery to profit corporate backers of the Governors. Not a pretty picture. Not one that is that far from China. Build more prisons. Fill em up. More slave labor. And Very big numbers in black ink. And if it fails, well, the tax payers pick up the red ink.

Easy to rationalize. Easier to ignore.