Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
1964- Vietnam - The USS Maddox and US aircraft engaged in a skirmish with North Vietnamese torpedo boats after South Vietnamese naval raids on the North. Two days later, on August 4, a second skirmish between North Vietnamese topedo boats and US naval warships resulted in US airstrikes on North Vietnamese oil and naval installations. The matter was brought before the United Nations for mediation. Later, especially since the end of the war, new information indicates that the US probably provoked the incident in order to agitate Congress into granting the President war making powers in Vietnam. Not long after this "Gulf of Tonkin Incident", on August 7, Congress passes the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" which allowed the president wide powers to prevent further attacks and to provide military assistance to any South Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) member state. Senators Wayne L. Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska cast the only opposing votes. General William Westmoreland replaced General Harkins as head of the U.S. forces in Vietnam and President Johnson initiated bombing raids against North Vietnam. President Johnson also imposed an embargo on North Vietnam which continued until 1994.
Brazil - A CIA backed military coup overthrew the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaced it became one of the most blood thirsty in history. General Castelo Branco created Latin America's first death squads (secret police who hunt down "Communist" for torture and murder, usually just political opponents). Later it was revealed that the CIA trained these death squads.
1965- Vietnam - After President Johnson started bombing North Vietnam in 1964, the US role in the Vietnamese civil war escalated. On March 8\9 the first US combat troops entered South Vietnam, to compliment the thousands of US troops that were already there in an "advisory" role. On April 7, President johnson authorized the use of US ground troops for offensive actions against North Vietnam. Subsequently, November 14-16 saw the first large scale engagement between US troops and the North Vietnamese Army. As noted earlier, the US had been involved in Vietnam since 1945, however, 1965 saw the true beginning of the American "Vietnam War", which continued until 1973. The embargo imposed on North Vietnam by President Johnson continued until 1994.
African Americans - Starting on August 11 and lasting until August 17, a major race riot envelops Watts, a district of Los Angeles. The Watts Riots resulted in 35 people being killed, approximately 1,000 wounded and almost $50,000,000 in property damage. Fire damage is later estimated to be $175,000,000. Some 50,000 local and State police and National Guard troops are used to suppress the riots.
Greece - Because Prime Minister George Papandreou refused to give in to US demands on settling the Cyprus issue, the CIA under John Maury, head of the CIA station in Athens, helped King Constantine buy Centre Union Deputies for the parliament, resulting in the end of the Papandreou government. However, Papandreou's popularity was too great, leading to the US outright abolishing democracy in Greece in 1967 (see that year).
Laos - 1965 saw the start of the major American military operations in Laos that became known as the "secret war" although it wasn't all that secret. US air sorties over Laos averaged between 10 to 20 a day in 1965.
Guatemala - With US support, the Peralta regime was replaced by that of Julio Cesar Mendez Montenegro (1966), who began his career as a total US puppet, allowing the US to do as it pleased and happily doing what he was told by Washington. Nevertheless, the US backed military still maintained firm control over the country. Mendez was nothing but a "yes man." After Mendez was installed, US intervention, directed by Col. John D. Webber of the American Military Mission, radically expanded. The US began shipping US military equipment, helicopters, and weaponry into Guatemala in much larger numbers. They also organized civilian "hunting bands" who were officially licensed to kill Indians as "potential guerrillas" at whim. After this time, US Special Forces began joining Guatemalan military attacks on peasant villages. It was also revealed by Thomas and Marjorie Melville, American Catholic missionaries in Guatemala, that the CIA also began actively flying bombing and strafing missions against the peasantry. The prefered aircraft being specially modified F-51(D) fighters, modified for slaughtering ground based peasants - 50 cal machineguns, small rockets, and limited napalm bombs. US aircraft also launched napalm bombing missions from US bases in Panama.
The US Agency for International Development (USAID) and the US Office of Public Safety (OPS) began a major operation to radically expand the Guatemalan police forces and to militarize them. By 1970 USAID reported that over 30,000 Guatemalan police had received OPS training, including torture techniques, "disappearances", and other terrorist training.
African Americans - A few weeks after the race riots in Newark, New Jersey, new race riots developed in Detroit, Michigan. The Detroit riots see 43 people, 33 blacks and 10 whites, killed. Property damage is two to three times that of the earlier Newark riots. Local and State police and National Guard troops were used to quell the violence although their original deployment results in increased confusion and violence. Governor Romney received permission from President Johnson to call in Federal troops, but the Governor was able to suppress the riots with police and National Guard forces alone.
Greece - Two days before elections, likely to be won by the liberal George Popandreous, the CIA backed a military coup which resulted in the "Reign of the Colonels". During the next six years of military control, the use of torture and murder against political opponents becomes the norm in Greece. The new military dictator, George Papadopoulos, had been a paid CIA employee since 1952 and prior to that distinguished himself as an effective leader of the Nazi "Security Battalion" in Greece that effectively hunted down and killed Greek resistance fighters to the Nazi occupation of Greece. Papadopoulos immediately declared martial law and in the first month of his regime counted some 8,000 victims. He then appointed himself prime minister. The US finally admitted its support for the Greek fascists in 1999.
1968- Vietnam - On January 21, the Battle of Khe Sanh began and continued to rage for the next six months. On March 16, US troops under William L. Calley Jr. massacred over 150 unarmed civilians in the "My Lai Massacre".
American Students - On May 4, National Guard troops opened fire at American students at Kent State University in Ohio. Four unarmed students were murdered outright, another was permanently paralyzed, and eight others were wounded by gunfire. Some of the victims were involved in an anti-war protest, but others were merely walking by the killing zone on their university campus.
1973- Chile - The CIA overthrew Latin America's first democratically elected socialist leader, Salvador Allende in Chile. This was sparked by Allende's nationalization of US corporate holdings in Chile. The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, under whose dictatorship thousands of Chileans, especially labor leaders and members of the political Left, were tortured and killed by way of "disappearances". The CIA continued to aid Pinochet for years after his installation as dictator.
Uruguay - The US supports a military coup which resulted in a military government. The subsequent regime gains the distinction of having the highest percentage of the population imprisoned for political reasons.
Native Americans - In February, a group of tradionalist Lakota 'strong-hearted women', Lakota spiritual leaders and American Indian Movement activists converge on a site near the Wounded Knee Massacre (see 1890). Among the issues that motivated the protest were cheap land leases by the tribal government to non-Indians on the Pine Ridge Reservation, tribal chairman Dick Wilson's suspension of his own impeachment hearings, and police brutality on the reservation. They declared an independent Oglala Nation in opposition to the BIA-dominated Pine Ridge Reservation tribal council. They also call on the federal government to honor its treaty of 1868 (see that year) with the Lakota people by recognizing Indian sovereignty on the reservation and removing federal officials. Wounded Knee Village is quickly surrounded by Lakota tribal police, BIA police, federal marshals, tribal vigilantes and FBI snipers. These forces are supported by National Guard troops and hardware including armored personnel carriers and helicopter gunships. Native American activists from around the country began arriving to support "Wounded Knee II" and the tribal councils on the Crow and Northern Cheyenne reservations cancelled mining leases on their lands in support of the sovereignty claims made by the Pine Ridge traditionalists. Over the next 71 days, negotiations and sporadic small arms confrontations happened. The US Army recommended a full scale military assault while urging restraint from the civilian forces surrounding the activists. During the fire fights, several people are wounded on both sides and two Indians - Frank Clearwater (Cherokee) and Buddy Lamont (Oglala Lakota) were killed. The confrontation ends in May when federal negotiators agree to sit down and discuss US treaty obligations stemming from the Fort Laramie Treaty of 1868 with the Lakota.
1979- Afghanistan - With the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA began arming any and all factions willing to fight the Soviets. Most of the benefactors of US weaponry were Islamic fundamentalist mujahedin groups. Among those who received arms from the US was the Egyptian Sheikh Abdel Rahman who was implicated in the first World Trade Center bombing in New York. The CIA also financed a little known Sunni fundamentalist group called Al Qaeda who recruited Islamic extremists from around the world and employed them against the Soviets in Afghanistan. The CIA-backed Al Qaeda lost funding from the US after the Soviet withdrawal, and led by the now famous Osama Bin Laden, turned against the US 1991 with the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia for the Gulf War against Iraq. Al Qaeda and Bin Laden were responsible for the most devastating terrorist attacks in US history on September 11, 2001.
Nicaragua - In 1979 the US backed dictator Anastasios Samoza II falls and is replaced by the Marxist Sandinistas. The Sandinista regime becomes quite popular because of their commitment to land reform and anti-poverty programs. Samoza had a murderous personal army that he used as his own private secret police force in Nicaragua known as the National Guard. With the fall of the Samoza government, the surviving members of the National Guard became the Contra rebels, who fought a CIA armed and financed guerilla war against the Sandinistas throughout the 1980's.
Continued
(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 04, 2004)
1980- El Salvador - After Archbishop Oscar Romero of San Salvador appealed to President Carter to stop financing the brutal right-wing government "Christian to Christian", Salvadoran strongman Roberto D'Aubuisson has Romero shot to death while saying Mass. Soon thereafter the country dissolves into civil war. The CIA and the US military supply the military government with overwhelming military and intelligence superiority over the rebels who were mostly poor peasants. The CIA began training the right-wing Salvadoran death squads as well. By 1992 some 63,000 Salvadorans were killed in the fighting.
Cambodia - Following the Carter administration's lead, in 1980, Ray Cline, Deputy Director of the CIA and Reagan's senior foreign policy advisor, went to Cambodia and met with the Khmer Rouge to arrange an increase in US support for Pol Pot against the Vietnamese backed government of Phnom Penh.
Honduras - The US begins basing Nicaraguan Contra terrorists in Honduras as well as using Honduran territory to support El Salvadoran right-wing death squads. In exchange, US military aid to Honduras is radically increased and death squads are established to eliminate Honduran dissidents.
1981- Zambia - The Reagan administration, which openly supported Apartheid South Africa, was strongly opposed to Kaunda because of his strong opposition to Apartheid and his support for the African National Congress and SWAPO. In 1981, Zambian security forces stopped a plot by dissidents and "South African commandos" to assassinate President Kaunda and seize power. It was reported (Africa News, July 13, 1981) that the CIA had recruited Zambians in an effort to examine "the possibility of an alternative leadership in the country."
Nicaragua - In the continuing support for the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua against the Sandinistas that began in 1979, the CIA begins selling weapons to Iran, via Israel, and using the profits to finance the Contras. This later becomes known as the "Iran-Contra Affair". 1981 also saw the issuance of the Freedom Fighter's Manual by the CIA to Contra terrorists which includes instruction on economic sabotage, propaganda, extortion, bribery, blackmail, torture, murder, and political assassination. 1981 also saw the US applying pressure to the International Monetary Fund and World Bank to limit and reduce loans to Nicaragua as well as the imposition of a economic embargo.
1982- Guatemala - General Efrain Rios Montt seized control of Guatemala with US support. After this coup, US arms shipments to Guatemala increased. Rios Montt immediately declared a state of emergency, doing away with any pretense to the rule of law. Within the first six months of his rule 2,600 Indians were massacred and during his 17 month administration he oversaw the complete destruction of 400 Indian villages. Reagan made a state visit and publicly stated his belief that Rios Montt was perfectly acceptable.
Cambodia - In order to help "rehibilitate" the image of Washington's allies, the Khmer Rouge, in their war against the Phnom Penh government of Cambodia, the US announced the creation of a new coalition of Cambodian rebel forces dominated by the Khmer Rouge. After the formation of this "coalition" Chinese aid to the rebels increased as did US aid, both official and unofficial
1983- Grenada - 2,700 US troops were used to invade and occupy Grenada in order to remove a government deemed undesirable by the United States. The US occupation of this country remained until 1984.
Lebanon - The 1,200 US troops sent to Lebanon in 1982 remained in the country. On October 23, 1983 a successful Hizbollah truck bomb killed 241 US Marines of the 24th Marine Amphibious Unit and seriously damaged the US Marine barracks in Beirut, which led directly to the withdrawal of American troops in 1984. It is for this reason that the United States still considers Hizbollah a "terrorist organization" although Hizbollah has not engaged in terrorist activities since the 1980's, opting instead for legitimate armed resistance against Israeli military targets occupying Southern Lebanon, and continuing to this day in the Israeli occupied Shebaa Farms district. On December 4, 1983, US warplanes from the USS John F. Kennedy and the USS Independence launched vengence strikes at Lebanese positions.
1984- Nicaragua - Congress stops all funding for the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua by the final Boland Amendment in 1984. However, CIA Director William Casey simply turns the operation over the Colonel Oliver North, who illegally continued supplying the Contra terrorists through the CIA's informal, secret, and self-financing network. This includes "humanitarian aid" donated by Adolph Coors and William Simon, and military aid funded by the Iranian arms sales.
1984 also saw the United States mine three Nicaraguan harbors. Nicaragua brought the issue before the World Court and won a $18 billion judgement against the United States for this act aggression. The US responded by refusing to recognize the Court's jurisdiction in the case.
Lebanon - President Reagan ordered the CIA to launch a terrorist strike against Hizbollah's Sheikh Fadlallah in Lebanon. In the process, the CIA managed to kill 80 Lebanese by means a car bomb. However, the target, Sheikh Fadlallah was not aong those murdered. As a consequence, Preident Reagan cancelled the CIA's "license to assassinate" on April 10.
Nicaragua - Nicaragua shoots down a US C-123 transport plane carrying weapons and military supplies to Contra terrorists. The lone survivor, Eugene Hasenfus, turns out to be CIA employee, as do the two dead pilots. The airplane belongs to a CIA front company, Southern Air Transport. The incident makes a mockery of President Reagan's claims that there was no illegal funding of the Contra terrorists by the United States.
Haiti - A popular revolt against "Baby Doc" Duvalier, results in his evacuation, by the United States, to southern France where he is to settle down to a comfortable retirement with millions of dollars he stole from Haiti. The CIA then begins working to install another right-wing dictator, but popular unrest against yet another US imposed dictator keeps the political situation unstable for the next four years. In an attempt to strengthen the military against the people, the CIA creates, trains and supplies the National Intelligence Service (SIN) which suppresses popular revolt and free _expression by means of torture and assassination.
1988- Iran - On July 3 the USS Vincennes, a US cruiser with the world's most advanced air defense \ air tracking system (the Aegis System) invaded Iranian territorial waters and then shot down Iran Air Flight 655 to Dubai, killing 290 civilians. For their heroism in massacring 290 defenseless Iranian passagers, the entire crew of the USS Vincennes were awarded combat action ribbons and Commander Lustig, the air warfare coordinator, received the Navy's Commendation Medal for his "heroic achivement". Although the Navy claimed the attack was a "mistake" this was done tongue in cheek (as is clearly shown by the military decorations awarded to the killers) and then they repeatedly lied about the circumstances and tried to cover the affair up. The cover up was largely revealed through an independent Newsweek investigation and later admitted by the US Navy.
Honduras - In 1988, US troops entered Honduras to prevent Nicaraguan forces from making incursions into Honduras to combat US-supported Contra terrorists. This deployment successfully stopped Nicaraguan incursions into Honduras, thereby providing the Contra terrorists with a safe haven to launch their attacks into Nicaragua. Although the Nicaraguan issue has been settled for years, US troops remain in Honduras to present. Today this consists of an infantry task force that works with the Honduran military.
1989- Panama - The US invaded Panama, nominally to oust General Manuel Noreiga from power but also to enforce US interests regarding the canal which was scheduled to be returned to Panama in 1999. Noreiga was captured, given a show trial, and imprisoned for life in isolation in the United States. Official US casualties were 23 US troops killed in action but this is questioned because of the media blackout that was instituted during the invasion. General Manual Noreiga had been supported by the CIA since 1966 and his drug smuggling was known to the CIA from 1972. However, his growing independence and instransigence resulted in Washington turning against him.
1990- Haiti - Competing against ten relatively wealthy candidates, leftist priest Jean-Bertrand Aristide won the elections with 68% of the national vote. However, after only eight months in power, the CIA-backed military deposed him. As more military strongmen begin crushing the Haitian people, Haitian refugees began escaping trying to make it to the United States on barely seaworthy rafts. As popular opinion calls for Aristide's return, the CIA begins a disinformation campaign painting the courageous priest as being mentally unstable. As for General Prosper Anvil, one of the military dictators who enjoyed mutilating his opposition and then showing the results of his work on Haitian televiaion, after being forced out in 1990, the US government evacuated him from Haiti and allowed him to retire with as much loot as could bring with him to a comfortable retirement in Florida.
Bulgaria - The US "National Endowment for Democracy" (NED), an intelligence outfit meant to encourage US puppet regimes began pouring in money, more than $2,000,000, to influence Bulgaria's first democratic elections in forty-five years. All US financing went to America-friendly anti-Communist factions. This was all done overtly, even the US ambassador openly endorsed the "Union of Democratic Forces" or UDF on election day. At the same time, the State Department publicly criticized the Socialist Party. European observers monitored the elections and certified their legitimacy. After the first round, the Socialist Party won. The US backed opposition took to the streets claiming fraud, though the EU observers stood by their observations that the elections were completely free and open. The US financed UDF, as well as the US NED financed Federation of Independent Student Associations began a series of daily protests. US NED began providing even more equipment and financing to the student protesters and the UDF. The US financed war against democracy in Bulgaria scored a significant victory when it forced Socialist President Mladenov to resign. The next victim of the US war against democracy in Bulgaria was Interior Minister Smerdjiev. Finally on August 1, the US financed agitator Zhelyu Zhelev, leader of the UDF was elected President of Bulgaria. The opposition leaders were quite candid about the US support they received to coerce the democratic government into meeting its demands. The US backed efforts against the democratic will of the Bulgarian people resulted in political and economic chaos ever since.
And this my friends, is the Short list. Peace? Trust? Disgusting? Doing good? Somehow more peaceful than Europe?
If this is our shining example, it is because it is a house of glass. And as we all should know, with such a domicile, one should not throw stones.
YMOS
tommy
(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 04, 2004)
Dawna, please accept my apologies. Please don't take it personally, as my kids are quite accustomed to being called the wrong name. I get into trouble when I call my wife by the wrong one though...
"Quiting the system, or selectively repressing the rights of undesirable democratic tendencies to maintain control over your electorate is no less despotic than the impulse to Union that you seem to think should have dropped its pants and put its hands in the air because slaveholders declared the Union to be null...."
Dropped its pants?
I'd be very interested in hearing just how the remaining states were "violated" by the secessions.
"In secession, an entire country is dismembered and it ceases to exist."
I cannot understand how the Union was formed with 10 states, and would have operated with only 9, but then would somehow "cease to exist" with 20+ states about 70 years later.
Hal
(Message edited by hawglips on September 07, 2004)
Wow....I sure hope you didn’t type all of that, Tommy, as it appears to be available from the following website (much easier on the fingers – as well as the bandwidth!).
I’ve only read a few of these, but I was curious as to why the minor islands of the U.S. were listed (Midway, Wake, Kingman Reef, etc.)? These islands had no population. For example, in the case of Kingman Reef – it is completely awash in low tide, caused numerous accidents when boats could not see the reef, etc.
If copying this website is your rebuttal to the question “What have we done since the twentieth century that have not been for the good of others”, I’m afraid I’ll need some clarification on most of the items you have chosen for your post.
(Message edited by Georgiana on September 07, 2004)
They were listed because they were not acts of peace or for the good of others. But clearly acts of imperialism, interference and just plain arrogance.
The method I chose was mine to choose wasn't it? I wanted the full visual impact to be present. Not a link to a site that only one year at a time could be viewed. If you feel it does not meet your approval and I should have been presented differently then I suppose I should apologize or something?
As to your statement that you need clarification, could you clarify what you do not understand? The point I was making seems pretty clear to me. And as a rebuttal it seems that presenting the facts and the truth are all one needs. But Please, what do you not understand?
As to the effort it took to do. It was quite a bit but it was a labor of love.
Please be assured that I did not take this personally at all...far from it. I have spent most of my life just trying to get people to spell my name correctly, so the wrong name is a refreshing change!
I did say this: "In secession, an entire country is dismembered and it ceases to exist." but it has been a long day and I'm not sure what you are questioning?
Gee Bill, when in British history was England such a magnanimous hippie commune of open minded libertarians?
When I read the opinions of some of the hard-bitten former Federal employees on these boards I think that – relatively speaking – it always has been.
I don't recall the Empire having any qualms about asserting its moral and military domain
True, but one would have hoped that the relationship between the Federal Government and the American peoples would be rather more enlightened than that between an imperial power and its colonies. Evidently not.
Lets not over romanticize the spirit of liberty; she is just as likely to be an ugly crone kissing the bloody lips of a severed head of one her victims.
Nice turn of phrase, and a very fair point. But the crimes committed in the name of liberty do not, of course, invalidate the concept. The notion that the citizen should be as free as possible from the chains of centralised government is not a mere pipedream for the flakier kind of hippy.
Three axioms underpin the Union cause:
1. The U.S. Government exists for the express purpose of gathering and retaining power.
2. Any conflict between the U.S. Government’s interests and those of any group of Americans should be resolved in favour of the former, and
3. The U.S. Government reserves the right to liquidate those Americans whose aspirations run contrary to its own
For those of us who cherish popular sovereignty and the right to self-government, the events of 1865 were a bitter blow. But not necessarily a decisive one. If history teaches us anything, it is that no nation or empire enjoys global domination for ever. It is as certain as anything can be that one day the United States will cease to be the most powerful nation on earth, and one may plausibly conjecture that this will be a result of the Union fracturing under internal pressure of some kind. Best not to dispose of those Confederate flags…you never know when they might come in handy again.
As to your statement that you need clarification, could you clarify what you do not understand? The point I was making seems pretty clear to me. And as a rebuttal it seems that presenting the facts and the truth are all one needs. But Please, what do you not understand?
I suppose my first question was why, when responding to a question on post-twentieth century events, you list 16 events (and only 16) that occurred in the nineteenth century? The list seems pretty selective. For that matter, why not list all of the related events from the nineteenth century? What criteria did you use?
I also noticed that U.S. involvement in WWI was not included in your list of events, which I assume implies this action meets your criteria for “acts of peace or for the good of others”. On the other hand, your list does include the declaration of war against Japan in 1941, which I am assuming implies that those objectives align more consistently with your understanding of “acts of imperialism, interference, and just plain arrogance”.
Perhaps if you could discuss the method you used when determining which events to lift from this website and include in your post, that might clear things up. What criteria did you use for differentiating between “acts of peace or for the good of others” from “acts of imperialism, interference, and just plain arrogance”?
>Lets not over romanticize the spirit of liberty; she is just as likely to be an ugly crone kissing the bloody lips of a severed head of one her victims.
Nice turn of phrase, and a very fair point. But the crimes committed in the name of liberty do not, of course, invalidate the concept. The notion that the citizen should be as free as possible from the chains of centralised government is not a mere pipedream for the flakier kind of hippy.
Three axioms underpin the Union cause:
1. The U.S. Government exists for the express purpose of gathering and retaining power.
2. Any conflict between the U.S. Government’s interests and those of any group of Americans should be resolved in favour of the former, and
3. The U.S. Government reserves the right to liquidate those Americans whose aspirations run contrary to its own
For those of us who cherish popular sovereignty and the right to self-government, the events of 1865 were a bitter blow. But not necessarily a decisive one. If history teaches us anything, it is that no nation or empire enjoys global domination for ever. It is as certain as anything can be that one day the United States will cease to be the most powerful nation on earth, and one may plausibly conjecture that this will be a result of the Union fracturing under internal pressure of some kind. Best not to dispose of those Confederate flags…you never know when they might come in handy again.
Bill <
Enjoy the repartee, however we are miles distant in arguement. Any good Whig philosopher would bridle at your assertion that unbridled liberty was somehow the cornerstone of society and government. Too Jacobin for an englishmen or an american cousin.
Your use of the concepts of Union and US Government are also challengable. In the concept of Constitutional federated Union the government is representational, elected and parliamentarian, It rules at the sufferage of the people; but when it rules it does so absolutely according to the law of the land. Nothing in the law or in common rule says that anarchy is tolerated. The arbitrary decisions of minority opinions to quit usually are not looked upon with much sympathy unless the majority is truly oppressive. Last time I checked my histories Southerners weren't forced to wear yellow stars on their clothes, or being arrested in the night and being shipped to gulags. If anything the southern political argument is that the national majority objected to their doing just that sort of thing within their society; and that was the basis for quitting the Union.
Popular sovereingty and self government does not extend beyond the domain of a nation. Accusing the United States of America for protecting its higher order Constitutional interests, which included acknowledging the fundamental egality of slaves to be just as principled as any other person under a democratically inspired Republic, and that constitutional principle was worthy of surviving in law and domain as long as it could be sustained, needs more substantial argument than mewling about the fall of Avalon and Camelot.
States righters like to put a bag over their head and declaim about all the things the United States are not supposed to be, while ignoring all those things which the United States is. The only constituents who seem to have problems with the big bad government either live in boxes on the side of mountains armed better than small equatorial countries, or are unassuming bespeckled little beings who fetish on the ritualized sadistic murder of civil servants
I would be just as much inclined to fault the South for breaking faith with the spirit of the Constitutional Union as I would be to assert that some monolithic and careless Orwellian burocracy trod on the liberties of some doeey eyed sweet little southerners waving thier cute little flag. This war was as much about southern fury that they might have to trade in their Maseratis for Cadillacs if Black Republicans did their worst...
Gosh, I did not know I was still in a grade school math class and had to show all my work. But I will endeavor to answer some of your questions.
Regarding the 19th century information contained, some time ago I had copied the info to illustrate the US colonization and control over other countries after the CW and during the Republican administration. I chose the 1863-1922 time frame, as those were the years my Grandfather lived, starting from the time of his enlistment into the Union army. I skipped Sherman’’s Indian atrocities and WWI basically because I felt everyone knew all about them and therefore a given, and to make it a more manageable size to post. This time I simply did not want to have to go back and insert WWI and the Indian stuff into the file. So I didn't.
I merely added the 19th century events to those of the 20th century because a)I had them already, so why not go ahead and show the events from the time of the CW, and b) Continuity. The 20th century did not occur in a vacuum. I was planning to skip WWII for the same reason that I skipped WWI, but thought I'd go ahead and put it down in case I needed it later. I omitted the repeats that indicated the event was still occurring in that year if I could catch them. I also think I omitted some government attacks against unions, riots, schools etc. on occasion to save time and space, although I think I missed several I planned to get rid of. On the other hand, there were a couple I missed that I fully intended to include but once posted I was not going to go through the effort to find them and insert them, since I felt there was already sufficient information provided to serve as the rebuttal.
My criteria was simply to post the geist of events that the US has perpetrated that I would consider to be non-peaceful and non-helpful, to rebut the claims made. You think it doesn't do that? That is your prerogative.
I hope that answers your criteria questions. If not, let me know. If you would prefer to deflect the rebuttal by nit picking the minutiae of my methods and criteria, I will oblige you a small amount, I reckon. But I do not think I should have to. It appears pretty obvious the US has not been, and is not now, a Knight Errant in Shining Armor or a Mother Teresa that Frank or anyone claims it to be. So claiming that the secession of States would make the US akin to Europe and thereby somehow more volatile or ‘‘disgusting’’ is pot-kettle-black as far as the truth is concerned. Not only is it a dire insult to the rest of the world, it just isn't true. The inherent hubris in such statements is what led me to post it to start with.
Since there seems to be a belief that the US has some moral do-gooder high ground, I have a two-part question for Frank and Yourself. Since the end of slavery seems to be such an important discussion point for the Unionists to wave around as proof they were right and superior, which countries have done more to end slavery today, The United States or those of Europe? Which have done more to promote it? Since this is a CW forum, I will consider the questions rhetorical and therefore no need to answer them.
YMOS
tommy
(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 08, 2004)
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