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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #71  
Old 01-23-2006, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
This doesn't concern secession documents.

The focus is on the North- their reaction to secession and motivations for war.
What? So now you're arguing that the North went to war over tariffs? Yeah, because the south was so wealthy that the north wanted to milk those 29% of the country's population who used their vast wealth to purchase 80% (wasn't that the percentage of the tariff that you claimed at one point was paid by the south?) of the manufactured goods consumed in the country.

best,
marc
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  #72  
Old 01-23-2006, 11:17 PM
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Battalion,

I still await you answer concerning Mosby's comment. Although I will not get a specific answer if the usual ploy is to talk about anything else but the man's comment.

Is he lying? Is he mistaken? Or is he trying to divert our attention?

Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

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  #73  
Old 01-24-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johan_steele
Battalion, kindly address the question you were asked; did Mosby have any idea what he was talking about or not? Or are you putting forth the idea that Mosby was a Northern propogandist?
I thought this thread was about tariffs?

But in any event, and at the risk of offending Battalion by interjecting this, and at the risk of further hijacking the thread, why should Mosby's opinion carry more weight with you than these?

I find the exclusive nature of your selection criteria to be quite puzzling.

"The one great evil, from which all other evils have flowed, is the overthrow of the Constitution of the United States....The Southern States now stand exactly in the same position towards the Northern States that the Colonies did towards Great Britain....Thus, the Government of the United States has become a consolidated Government; and the people of the Southern States are compelled to meet the very despotism their fathers threw off in the Revolution of 1776. ." ~ Rhett

"The cause in which we are engaged is the cause of the advocacy of rights to which we were born, those for which our fathers of the Revolution bled--the richest inheritance that ever fell to man, and which it is our sacred duty to transmit untarnished to our children. Upon us is devolved the high and holy responsibility of preserving the Constitutional liberty of a free government." (President Jefferson Davis, speech in Richmond, June 1, 1861)

"We feel that our cause is just and holy; we protest solemnly in the face of mankind that we desire peace at any sacrifice save that of honour and independence; we ask no conquest, no aggrandizement, no concession of any kind from the States with which we were lately confederated; all we ask is to be let alone; that those who never held power over us shall not now attempt our subjugation by arms." President Jefferson Davis, 29 April, 1861

"At a time when the minds of men are straying far from the lessons our fathers taught, it seems proper and well to recur to the original principles on which the system of government they devised was founded. The eternal truths which they announced, the rights which they declared “unalienable,” are the foundation-stones on which rests the vindication of the Confederate cause." -- President Jefferson Davis

"The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form." ~President Jefferson Davis

"There is another lying back of it--with which this is intimately connected--that may be regarded as the great and primary cause. This is to be found in the fact that the equilibrium between the two sections in the government as it stood when the Constitution was ratified and the government put in action has been destroyed. At that time there was nearly a perfect equilibrium between the two, which afforded ample means to each to protect itself against the aggression of the other; but, as it now stands, one section has the exclusive power of controlling the government, which leaves the other without any adequate means of protecting itself against its encroachment and oppression.
The result of the whole is to give the Northern section a predominance in every department of the government, and thereby concentrate in it the two elements which constitute the federal government: a majority of States, and a majority of their population, estimated in federal numbers."
~ J.C. Calhoun

"The South has contended only for the supremacy of the constitution, and the just administration of the laws made in pursuance to it." ~ R.E. Lee

"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government as originally organised should be administered in purity and truth." ~ R.E. Lee

Hal
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  #74  
Old 01-24-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Battalion,

I still await you answer concerning Mosby's comment. Although I will not get a specific answer if the usual ploy is to talk about anything else but the man's comment.

Is he lying? Is he mistaken? Or is he trying to divert our attention?

Unionblue
The issues I have presented on this thread are how much the South paid in tariffs and the effect of its non-payment (due to secession) on the North.

What does Mosby's opinion on the secession of SC have to do with that?
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  #75  
Old 01-24-2006, 11:20 PM
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Battalion,

You are correct. The topic of this thread is the tariff. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused by bringing up a quote concerning slavery.

I will attempt to remain on topic.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #76  
Old 01-25-2006, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
The issues I have presented on this thread are how much the South paid in tariffs and the effect of its non-payment (due to secession) on the North.

What does Mosby's opinion on the secession of SC have to do with that?
Hi, Battalion,
You haven't been answering questions about the tariff either, so lets rephrase Neil's question like this: Why do you suppose, as Mosby noted, South Carolina didn't say she went to war because of tariffs? As Mosby said, she ought to know why she went to war, implying it was an insult to claim anything else.

Then, since you claimed the South paid the majority of the tariffs, would you please elaborate on how her relatively small population bought a majority of dutiable imports; what specifically those types of imports would be; and why the North didn't also buy them in proportion to their population.

Thanks,
Cedarstripper
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  #77  
Old 01-25-2006, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarstripper
Hi, Battalion,
You haven't been answering questions about the tariff either, so lets rephrase Neil's question like this......etc.....etc

Thanks,
Cedarstripper
You will have to be patient.

Let's see...how many folks am I debating on this thread...alone-

cedarstripper
unionblue
cash
marcferguson

I will have to color-code it to keep up with everybody-

cedarstripper
unionblue
cash
marcferguson
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2006, 12:47 PM
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You may discount DiLorenzo for whatever reason, but what he writes regarding nineteenth century economics simply can't be ignored. This excerpt from one of his articles helps to explain a couple of additional ways the high tariff hurt the Southern economy outside of causing higher prices on purchases:

"It has long been understood by economists that import tariffs impose a disproportionate burden on export-dependent regions. And even McPherson admits that the South in 1860 exported about 60 percent of what it produced (others have estimated it as being closer to 75 percent). As Wilson Brown and Jan Hogendorn explain in their popular textbook, International Economics (p. 121), a tax on imports is effectively a tax on exports as well. This is because after a tariff causes the price of certain goods to rise,

. . . consumers . . . include the . . . price increases in their wage and salary demands. Everybody tries to pass the tax to someone else. The only group that is powerless to pass the costs on further are the exporters, who have to sell at world prices and swallow these costs. In essence, a tax on imports becomes a tax on exports (emphasis added).

International trade economists call this the "pass-through effect" of a tariff. Unlike McPherson and Poulter, early nineteenth century Southerners understood this perfectly well because they observed how their incomes fell whenever tariff rates rose. As John C. Calhoun explained in a September 1, 1828 letter to Micah Sterling of Watertown, New York regarding his opposition to the Tariff of Abominations, a protectionist tariff "gives to one section [the North] the power of recharging . . . the duty, while to the other [the South] it is a pure unmitigated burden." This is so, wrote Calhoun, because the South "was engaged in cultivating the great staples of the country for a foreign market, in a market where we can receive no protection, and where we cannot receive one cent more to indemnify us for the heavy duties we have to pay as consumers" (Clyde Wilson, ed., The Essential Calhoun, p. 190).

There is a second, more roundabout way in which import tariffs impose a disproportionate burden on exporters. As Wilson and Hogendorn further explain:

As tariffs cause imports to fall, less foreign exchange is needed to purchase them and the demand for foreign currency declines. The domestic currency will thus rise in value on the foreign exchange market. Exporters find that their foreign-currency earnings purchase less domestic currency and therefore they suffer.

Milton and Rose Friedman explain how tariffs discriminate against exporters and export-dependent regions on an even more fundamental level in their bestseller, Free to Choose (Avon paperback, 1980, p. 38):

If tariffs are imposed on, say, textiles, that will add to output and employment in the domestic textile industry. However, foreign producers who no longer can sell their textiles in the United States earn fewer dollars. They will have less to spend in the United States. Exports will go down to balance decreased imports. Employment will go up in the textile industry, down in the export industries. And the shift of employment to less productive uses will reduce total output.

This again is exactly how the export-dependent South viewed all the protectionist tariff bills promoted by the likes of Abraham Lincoln, a lifelong protectionist, and his Republican Party. Apply the Friedmans’ example to 1861, and one can easily see how higher tariffs on textile imports benefited the New England textile manufacturers and workers but harmed the export-dependent South. This is exactly how protectionist tariffs are always and everywhere a tool of political plunder. To make matters worse, as the Friedmans point out, they also cause an overall reduction in total output in an economy, making everyone poorer in an aggregate sense.

It wasn’t just the antebellum South that was victimized by Republican Party protectionism. By 1863, with the Southern Democrats out of Congress, the Republican Party increased the average tariff rate to nearly 50 percent. It remained at such lofty levels until the income tax was adopted in 1913. In a classic bait-and-switch con game, the federal government temporarily reduced the average tariff rate to gain support for the income tax, and then once the income tax was adopted tariff rates rose sharply once again.

During this time of Republican Party protectionist hegemony the farmers of the American West and the Midwest, who also depended quite heavily on foreign markets, were similarly plundered by tariffs. This led to a political movement for lower tariffs on the part of the "Populists." As explained by Frank Chodorov in his classic book, The Income Tax (pp. 36–37):

The plight of these farmers was made worse by the protective-tariff policy of the government. The best they could get for their products was the competitive world price, while the manufactures they bought, from the East, were loaded down with duties. Next to their demand for more money, the Populists clamored for lower tariffs."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo58.html

Regards,
Rose
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  #79  
Old 01-25-2006, 02:31 PM
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Dear Rose,

In the interest of clarity, I think it is good to keep in mind that there are two separate and distinct issues being discussed here regarding the South and the tariff. The first is the claim that the citizens of the South (states that would become the confederacy) bought the majority of dutiable imports and thus paid the majority of any "pass-through effect" (what I understand the meaning of the term to be) of the tariff into the US Treasury. This claim is imperative to support an argument that Lincoln and the Union would not let the South go out of concern for the loss of revenues from their imports. It is this claim that Battalion is attempting to support with his post hoc argument that declines and later rise in import levels exactly mirrored the secession and return of the southern slave-states.

The other issue that you now address is not how much these Southerners actually contributed to the Treasury, but rather how much burden they carried due to the tariff, and how much pain it caused them financially. This second issue does not rely on any claim that the South bought disproportionately high amounts of dutiable imports, but it does include the burdensome effects of higher domestic prices made possible by tariffs, which is not an ingredient in the former issue.

I think the "pass the tax along to someone else" and the "consumers including the price increase in their wage and salary demands" arguments put forth by Brown and Hogendorn must make even an economist like DiLorenzo squirm in his seat a little. I think the real challenge here is to show that the cotton grower was any more burdened than most any other trade from wheat growers, to miners, to loggers, to dairy farmers.

But I'll save it for later posts. I just wanted to make a note here that points made one way or another in regards to a burden from tariffs will only muddy the waters if they are conflated with points made in regards to an alleged majority of dutiable imports bought in the South. I trust you no more enjoy going around in circles than I.

Cedarstripper
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  #80  
Old 01-25-2006, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
You will have to be patient.

Let's see...how many folks am I debating on this thread...alone
No problem. Consider me on your waiting list. For your convenience, my rebuttals can be found on posts #51, 52.
Thanks
Cedarstripper
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