Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
There are generally six Celtic peoples recognized in the world today. They divide into two groups, the Brythonic Celts, and the Gaelic Celts. The Brythonic Celts are the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons; the Gaels are the Irish, Scots and Manx (inhabitants of the Isle of Man). Some people recognize a seventh Celtic nation in the region of Galicia in Spain (their Celtic language died out a thousand years ago, and so the Celtic links are more tenous).
Because of the great potato famine in Ireland in the last century, so many Irish migrated to the U.S. that they are by far the largest contingent of Celts in this country. Many people here mistakenly believe that Celtic means the same as Irish (this, of course, does not go down well with the rest of the Celts). The Scots form the next largest group of Celts in the U.S., with the Welsh trailing in numbers. How many Celts are there here? It's hard to say exactly, because of the number of part-Celtic Americans, but it is at least a quarter of the population.
The Celts are a musical, artistic people, with a love of words. They also love a good time, and hold many festivals around the country each year. On March 17, when the Irish pull out the stops to celebrate their day, perhaps the United States becomes the seventh Celtic country. We are surely the richer because of the Celts' presence here.
The Celts at War. The Celts loved war. They were scrappers from the word go. They arrayed themselves as fiercely as possible, sometimes charging into battle fully naked, dyed blue from head to toe, and
SCREAMING LIKE BANSHEES (Rebel Yell) to terrify their enemies. (ahem).
The history of the Celtic peoples goes back some thousands of years; at one time all of Europe was Celtic. The earliest European Celtic culture was in Hallstadt, Austria, and this was followed by the La Tene Celts in Switzerland. Over two thousand years ago England was ruled entirely by Celts; eventually the Romans, Jutes, Angles and Saxons came and pushed the Celts to the north and west. One of the great Celtic events of history was the fifth-century battle between King Arthur and his Celtic army AGAINST THE DARK PAGAN HORDES (SECULAR HUMANISTS!) in England (as the Celts termed the non-Celtic peoples); the Celts considered King Arthur's loss in that battle to be the death of civilization. King Arthur himself remains an important figure in Celtic legend; the original story is now much embroidered with medieval knights and traditions.
The Celts were a group of peoples loosely tied by similar language, religion, and cultural expression. They NOT CENTRALLY GOVERNED, and quite as happy to fight each other as any non-Celt. They were warriors, living for the glories of battle and plunder. They were also the people who brought iron working to the British Isles.
The Celts are THE MOST HOSPITABLE (SOUTHERN HOSPITALITY) people you could hope to find anywhere. Are you of Celtic blood? Yes? No? It doesn't matter! Welcome, more welcomes and a hundred thousand welcomes! Have something to eat and drink, and we'll talk all night. Perhaps there will be music, singing and dancing. Whatever, have a good time and please come again.
When did this alleged domination of southern population by Celts occur?
Cedarstripper
No, Great Question!
Frank Conner says:
"The New Englanders harbored a special grudge for the South, which had welcomed the despised Celts".
Apparently, the South was originally rural Britons (Scots and Welsh, as well as English who were non-Londoners, and more like the Celts, in languid slower pace and rural lifestyle).
These plantation owners were "landed gentry, originally from the English midlands."
"These men differed from the Londoners. preferring a more gracious and leisurely lifestyle, while observing faithfully the code of chivalry. Their way of life was based upon human values rather than materialistic ones."
"Being the high-profile Southerners, the planters established the image of the South in the eyes of the rest of the nation."
"The Southerners were primarily individualists who cared little for organizing..."
"Most of them were not consumed with overweening ambition; they preferred to lead balanced lives. They were uninterested in novelty in their religion or their society; they treasured tradition."
He then cites the rules for Southern living:
Chivalry. Honor. Duty. Leisure. Commandments 5 through 10 (the first four are for dealing with God), Tradition.
Physical Courage. Kindness. Peace of Mind and Tranquility.
Hospitality.
People rarely sue one another.
Judge others by character, and not by wealth or position.
Refuse to be associated with bottom-feeders.
These things are above everything else, and not just
"must remember to do's"...
Name is more important that anything...
(Some Southerners were lead astray with Cotton, but most were not).
The Celtic principles were the mainstream of this society:
"Any society which truly believes in God and lives by the Ten Commandments requires only minimal government
to maintain order. The unwritten social rules are strict
but the written laws are few, thus, the citizens are allowed maximum freedom under the law. Under those conditions, a powerful central government is not only unnecessary but extremely undesirable. Accordingly, the antebellum Southerners preferred limited federal government and maximum state sovereignty, precisely as spelled out in the US Constitution, with government functioning at the lowest local level; states rights and home rule. This approach resulted in a more open and far friendlier society".
And, of course, the Celtic warlike properties!
All told, the Southern Culture which developed and still stays with us today is this Celtic
mix from the English midlands, and surrounding areas outside of the London area, and diametrically opposed to the Angles, Saxons, and the inner-city English.
New Englanders (as the name implies) were of Anglo-Saxon-Danish-Norman stock from London (Londinium) and the surrounding regions of East Anglia.
The Northern aristocracy had given New England its "stable Conservative society". Its
"greatest problem - as pointed out by James Truslow Adams in AMERICA'S TRAGEDY
- resulted from the flight of much of the North's aristocracy just before the Revolutionary War. This ruling class had established the ideal mores, cultural beliefs, and manners for the region".
These Tories (Conservatives) left a moral hole in the North.
"It became basically a materialist society."
The remaining Londoners excelled in Xenophobia (fear of strangers).
"Down through the centuries, they had considered themselves far superior to all of the other peoples inhabiting the face of the earth, and they believed it was their god-given mission to conquer and govern as many of those other peoples as possible, and make then worshipful aspirants to the status of imitation Anglo-Saxons." Page 14 - TSUS.
The sun never setting on the British Empire seems to bear this out. The UNION JACK flag, a forced conglomeration of all the flags into one, shows this particular bend.
Part of that flag, the white St. Andrews on the blue field, was the flag of Scottish independence. This flag would serve as General PGT Beauregard's model for the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, as well as the cantons for the Second Nation, and the Third National flag (Our present Confederate flag; the one we use today), although a thirteen starred First national STARS AND BARS (Three large stripes, Red/White/Red and a blue field of thirteen stars, like the United States flag) is also used to denote the latest incarnation of the Confederacy (1865 to present) in the states which originally formed it.
As for your above post, how does this in any way have anything to do with the Civil War?
My first reaction to all of this if this is in someway "evidence" to that conflict we all study here, then I will firmly put forth the theories that the earth is truly flat and the moon is made out of green cheese.
It all comes across as an elaborate smoke screen to excuse the political and historical realities of the time.
A smoke screen, in other words.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
As for your above post, how does this in any way have anything to do with the Civil War?
My first reaction to all of this if this is in someway "evidence" to that conflict we all study here, then I will firmly put forth the theories that the earth is truly flat and the moon is made out of green cheese.
It all comes across as an elaborate smoke screen to excuse the political and historical realities of the time.
A smoke screen, in other words.
Unionblue
I think it tries to show where these things came from, and how they manifested, initially.
Can you not see that the problems we have had were brought over here with us? Did we not come over here to escape this same stuff... over there?
Why, then, the Mayflower?
Why the Independence, the Discovery, and the Susan Constant, thirteen years earlier?
And, if we can see where we have been, it might help us to understand who these people were!
I don't think that the assessment I have been getting about the South and its Confederacy is very fair, let alone accurate!
I keep seeing people writing "what caused all of this?"
I think it tries to show where these things came from, and how they manifested, initially.
Can you not see that the problems we have had were brought over here with us? Did we not come over here to escape this same stuff... over there?
Why, then, the Mayflower?
Why the Independence, the Discovery, and the Susan Constant, thirteen years earlier?
And, if we can see where we have been, it might help us to understand who these people were!
I don't think that the assessment I have been getting about the South and its Confederacy is very fair, let alone accurate!
I keep seeing people writing "what caused all of this?"
Well, why don't we see what led up to it?
Beowulf
Beowulf,
Nowhere do I see any evidence that we brought Celts, etc., to the point that 'they' had any influence upon the causes of the Civil War, even to the lead-up time you wish to imply.
By the time this conflict began, it began over what was happening in this country, not some mystical, magical Celtic ones.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Your take on Celtic history was romantic and nice but like all your takes on history just a little distorted and incorrect. The Jutes, Scots, and Pics were not Celts and would most likely have skinned you for referring to them as Celts. The Welsh have the closes ties to their Celtic past.
The idea that the south is or was some bastion of Celtic values and virtues and the north is or was some bastion of vile Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Roman values and virtues.
A note: Dublin was a settle by Vikings and Moscow was settle by Vikings but neither are Viking cities today.
The Englishmen who can to the new world and settle our nation may of had a Celtic past but were not Celtic. They were a conglomeration of their Celtic, Roman. Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and French past as America is a conglomeration of many different people of the world. An Englishman of the past would have most likely referred to their Anglo-Saxon roots then their Celtic past.
I like your ride through the Celtic demise at the hands of a savage Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking hands. I like how you imply, our civil war was a replay of the virtuous Celtic (Southern) peoples demise at the vile savage hands of the Roman, Anglo-Saxon, and Viking (Northern) peoples.
A note by any count the Romans were more civilized then the Celt's ever were.
"The New Englanders harbored a special grudge for the South, which had welcomed the despised Celts".
Apparently, the South was originally rural Britons (Scots and Welsh, as well as English who were non-Londoners, and more like the Celts, in languid slower pace and rural lifestyle).
These plantation owners were "landed gentry, originally from the English midlands."
"These men differed from the Londoners. preferring a more gracious and leisurely lifestyle, while observing faithfully the code of chivalry. Their way of life was based upon human values rather than materialistic ones."
"Being the high-profile Southerners, the planters established the image of the South in the eyes of the rest of the nation."
"The Southerners were primarily individualists who cared little for organizing..."
"Most of them were not consumed with overweening ambition; they preferred to lead balanced lives. They were uninterested in novelty in their religion or their society; they treasured tradition."
He then cites the rules for Southern living:
Chivalry. Honor. Duty. Leisure. Commandments 5 through 10 (the first four are for dealing with God), Tradition.
Physical Courage. Kindness. Peace of Mind and Tranquility.
Hospitality.
People rarely sue one another.
Judge others by character, and not by wealth or position.
Refuse to be associated with bottom-feeders.
These things are above everything else, and not just
"must remember to do's"...
Name is more important that anything...
(Some Southerners were lead astray with Cotton, but most were not).
The Celtic principles were the mainstream of this society:
"Any society which truly believes in God and lives by the Ten Commandments requires only minimal government
to maintain order. The unwritten social rules are strict
but the written laws are few, thus, the citizens are allowed maximum freedom under the law. Under those conditions, a powerful central government is not only unnecessary but extremely undesirable. Accordingly, the antebellum Southerners preferred limited federal government and maximum state sovereignty, precisely as spelled out in the US Constitution, with government functioning at the lowest local level; states rights and home rule. This approach resulted in a more open and far friendlier society".
And, of course, the Celtic warlike properties!
All told, the Southern Culture which developed and still stays with us today is this Celtic
mix from the English midlands, and surrounding areas outside of the London area, and diametrically opposed to the Angles, Saxons, and the inner-city English.
New Englanders (as the name implies) were of Anglo-Saxon-Danish-Norman stock from London (Londinium) and the surrounding regions of East Anglia.
The Northern aristocracy had given New England its "stable Conservative society". Its
"greatest problem - as pointed out by James Truslow Adams in AMERICA'S TRAGEDY
- resulted from the flight of much of the North's aristocracy just before the Revolutionary War. This ruling class had established the ideal mores, cultural beliefs, and manners for the region".
These Tories (Conservatives) left a moral hole in the North.
"It became basically a materialist society."
The remaining Londoners excelled in Xenophobia (fear of strangers).
"Down through the centuries, they had considered themselves far superior to all of the other peoples inhabiting the face of the earth, and they believed it was their god-given mission to conquer and govern as many of those other peoples as possible, and make then worshipful aspirants to the status of imitation Anglo-Saxons." Page 14 - TSUS.
The sun never setting on the British Empire seems to bear this out. The UNION JACK flag, a forced conglomeration of all the flags into one, shows this particular bend.
Part of that flag, the white St. Andrews on the blue field, was the flag of Scottish independence. This flag would serve as General PGT Beauregard's model for the Battle Flag of the Confederacy, as well as the cantons for the Second Nation, and the Third National flag (Our present Confederate flag; the one we use today), although a thirteen starred First national STARS AND BARS (Three large stripes, Red/White/Red and a blue field of thirteen stars, like the United States flag) is also used to denote the latest incarnation of the Confederacy (1865 to present) in the states which originally formed it.
Beowulf
Beowulf:
A Note: The Southern aristocracy and Social elite wanted to emulated the British aristocracy and Social elite. Many of Britain aristocracy have stronger ties to their French(Norman the Conquer) past then to any Celtic past.
I see Southerns wanting to be more French. Is this a revelation a missed footnote in history that the South yearned to be French.
I like this distorting of history thing, thanks Beo-Baby!!
Well, even IF Beowulf is correct (or Not) All I can say is ...... Anglo-Saxon's still kicks Celtic b..t
It would appear that the British Mid-land rulers in the south had the slaves and convinced their Celtic yeomen that what was good for slavery was good for them.... Dosen't say much about Celtic brains, does it.
There were not enough Anglo-Saxon's in the south to win their indpendence; plenty of Celts, though.
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Oh, Really? From a quick glance at the net, sir! 
Linear Mode
