Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Even IF Beowulf's ethnic superiority nonsense was correct, it would only confirm the historical record that Anglo-Saxon's beat up on the Celts fairly regularly and through time they got even better at it.
The ethinic purity, so prized by Beowulf, was very diluted even before 1860.
America experienced many migrations of various ethnic groups even before the Revolutionary War. French Hueguenots to SC , French Quebecoise to La. along with the already established French-Spanish Creole's along with the Spanish in Fla plus several waves of German Immigration before both wars. Unless, Beowulf considers them 'really' Anglo-Saxon's
In historical terms, the biggest single pool of undiluted Celtic Blood in America (if one accepts that the Scot-Irish were Celts) Then that was probably the mountaineers of the Appalachia's, who, of all geographicl southerners, most stubbornly maintained their loyalty to the Old Union.
P.S. Before one goes rummaging through the histories of other countries, it is well to get to know that of your own country first.
Speakin' fraem Clan Gunn, We dinna call yae the Bloody
Saxons faer naught!
Yet we manage tae give a gued account o' ourselves, when
yae come tae call on us!
Tow' ne pa' vae?
Beowulf
Ya'll notice something here. Although we don't speak Gaelic, anymore, nor hold to the Druidic customs, we have embraced Calvinistic Christendom and derived a mahvelous
dialect from ya'lls Saxon tongue! And anybody who ventures this way and sits a spell...
picks up on it, directly, and commences to notice a song in his own voice, after awhile.
Even in our transplant yankee friends!
And no matter where they are from... they begin to develop our manners and habits, and dialect.
That's how we have survived all these years!
And ya'll are right about that one thing. We did maintain our loyalty to the Old Union.
No, I did not say Grant was commanding. Read it again!
NAME of the VOLUME: JEFFERSON DAVIS VOLUME I - "AMERICAN PATRIOT"
Frank A. Stevens - THE BLACK HAWK WAR - (He grew up at Dixon's Ferry, Illinois and
has provided a lovely account of the time period).
Other Strode-listed Sources; (besides pages of PRO and ANTI- Davis sources...).
"1). The hither-to unpublished personal letters and papers of Jefferson Davis, owned by his grandson, Jefferson Hayes-Davis. Permission was given to Strode for accessing these documents".
2). "Testimonies and family reminiscences of descendants and collateral relatives, and manuscript letters in their possession".
3). Strodes' great-grandfather, Colonel Strode WAS THERE with DAVIS at the time...
4). "The two volume 1,638 page JEFFERSON DAVIS; A MEMOIR", by Varina Howell Davis
Y'all are starting to wax foolish. Celts and Anglos and Saxons. Have any of you ever noticed that after a generation or two, all that manure is forgotten? And now we're resurrecting it? Ish dah.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
"No, I did not say Grant was commanding. Read it again!"
Beowulf's post #513, Feb. 3., 2008, 7:10PM:
Quote:
"So, I assume that you are cool with Colonel Davis heroism section a bit later in Strode's book?
The part here he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?
(But, you know, if any of your historians had mentioned this stuff about brother Lincoln, then...they wouldn't be your historians for very long, would they?).
I daresay no one has won an Abraham Lincoln award for bringing up these less than savory elements, especially since the audience is armed with real invective!
_____________________
"My paramount object in this strife is to learn the truth, and is not either to save, nor to destroy "history"! If I could learn the truth, and save "history", I would do that. If I could learn the truth by partially destroying "history", and partially preserving it, at the same time, I would do that, also!"
I have read your post again.
"The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?"
Reads to me like your saying those boys were Grant's and it reads like they were under his command. Maybe you don't understand the use of grammer and punctuation or some such, but I do think you knew what you were trying to intentionaly convey.
And it seems very obvious what that intention was.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Y'all are starting to wax foolish. Celts and Anglos and Saxons. Have any of you ever noticed that after a generation or two, all that manure is forgotten? And now we're resurrecting it? Ish dah.
ole
So, why do we have all the diversity we are so obviously 'enjoying' for the last several hundred years, if after a generation or two, it is forgotten?
The Celts became the originating Southrons. Now others who come here become Southrons, as well... Same up North, and with the Canadians, if you dwell among them for a time (I have). They have their own culture, regardless of race.
Culture starts out as blood, and ends up as social behavior and regionalism.
We are all products of our heredity, environment, and social class. In that order. Blood is first, and influences the locations we choose in which to live, and then interacts socially.
But Blood is strong; the strongest of quantifiers.
As Jethro Tull says, "Everybody is from somewhere, even if you've never been there!"
No, I did not say Grant was commanding. Read it again!
Yes, you did.
"such as when Ulysses S. Grant's men were getting the tar and stuffing kick out of them by the Mexicans,"
"The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?"
Now you're trying to weasel out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
NAME of the VOLUME: JEFFERSON DAVIS VOLUME I - "AMERICAN PATRIOT"
Frank A. Stevens - THE BLACK HAWK WAR - (He grew up at Dixon's Ferry, Illinois and
has provided a lovely account of the time period).
Other Strode-listed Sources; (besides pages of PRO and ANTI- Davis sources...).
"1). The hither-to unpublished personal letters and papers of Jefferson Davis, owned by his grandson, Jefferson Hayes-Davis. Permission was given to Strode for accessing these documents".
2). "Testimonies and family reminiscences of descendants and collateral relatives, and manuscript letters in their possession".
3). Strodes' great-grandfather, Colonel Strode WAS THERE with DAVIS at the time...
4). "The two volume 1,638 page JEFFERSON DAVIS; A MEMOIR", by Varina Howell Davis
among a whole host of other books...
Beowulf
Thank you. I don't find his great grandfather to be credible. Family reminiscencies and testimonies are also lacking in credibility. They all tend to sacrifice truth in the quest to hail the individual. Ditto for his wife's memoir of him. These would be useful if they provided an interesting look at a fact that was previously established by a more objective and credible source. Seeing those sources, I have little confidence in Strode's scholarship.
"The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?"
Reads to me like your saying those boys were Grant's and it reads like they were under his command. Maybe you don't understand the use of grammer and punctuation or some such, but I do think you knew what you were trying to intentionaly convey.
And it seems very obvious what that intention was.
Unionblue
UnionBlue! Good to hear from you. I don't recall your commenting on my little find from THE RISE AND FALL OF THE CONFEDERATE GOVERNMENT, Chapter X, wherein
Davis demurs over the intentions of Slavery.
I should very much like to get your take on that, if you have a moment.
As Strode did not list ANYONE attached to this group, except the lieutenant (Grant), who retreated with the group, what would you have said????
The group in which Grant was retreating?
Fine. You may go with that, if you like...
As to my motives, you may infer what you like. But Grant was clearly no grunt at this event, being a lieutenant...
True, he was no lieutenant GENERAL, but he did have rank!
Yes, you did.
"such as when Ulysses S. Grant's men were getting the tar and stuffing kick out of them by the Mexicans,"
"The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?"
Now you're trying to weasel out of it.
Thank you. I don't find his great grandfather to be credible. Family reminiscencies and testimonies are also lacking in credibility. They all tend to sacrifice truth in the quest to hail the individual. Ditto for his wife's memoir of him. These would be useful if they provided an interesting look at a fact that was previously established by a more objective and credible source. Seeing those sources, I have little confidence in Strode's scholarship.
Regards,
Cash
Don't be so quick to judge. We are talking PAGES and PAGES of sources. Enough to make your head spin!
Read the book. Seriously.
Beowulf
(And I think I see the problem here with you and UnionBlue, over this Grant thing...
You see him as a leader. I see him as an identifier in a group of people. Example:
"Welker's team lost the Superbowl; his boys (the boys with whom he was uniformed) could not contain New York."
and then, "Bill's boys lost the game." Does not identify ownership, but association).
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