Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
He was taken by boat to Fort Monroe and held in the casemate there. I've seen the casemate. It's basically a jail cell. He was placed in chains for a time, but then released from them. He was eventually freed on bail and then pardoned by Andrew Johnson. What else would you like to know?
I don't know what you mean by "approved" historians, but the charlatans you cited are not historians in any sense of the word.
Regards,
Cash
That's all you got?! No drinking out of a horse bucket?
No forced leaving his lamps on in his cell as a source of irritation, spoken of in Varina's writings? No exposure to the elements in the dungeon-like casemate? (Looks more like a bed and breakfast nowadays, I am told!).
No constant tramping of soldiers feet to irritate him to distraction? No deprivation of reading materials? No forced
seclusion from anyone at all, even family, for a good while? No orders to the guards that they were not to speak to him?
The worst serial killers today would have the Modern Left in a blind rage over any one of these, and you say NO TORTURE? Of course you do...
And the chains business? The leg-irons? Again, we see the depravity of his captors, (as he was no escape risk), and the degree of his intended humiliation - was punitive long before any DUE PROCESS which "certain" was all so hot to have forced into "law", with all its attendant riders!
Davis benefitted from no due process. They knew they could never take him to court!
Davis would have stood up in court and destroyed the very 'case' against him!
By Beowulf
And where was "Captain" Lincoln, all this time? He had already been mustered out of the service in 1832, during the Blackhawk wars, for basically, incompetence. With his 68 miscreant ne'er-do-wells under his 'command', he had twice been admonished and reprimanded for stupidity and
had been made to wear a wooden sword twice as punishment.
I can find no mention, and have found none of Lincoln twice being "admonished and reprimanded for stupidity", and/or having "been made to wear a wooden sword twice as punishment." I think your "source" has a creative imagination and is inventing this tripe so to sell books to his audience. (lost causers)
The time of enlistment of the volunteers had now come to an end, and the men, seeing no prospect of glory or profit, and weary of the work and the hunger which were the only certain incidents of the campaign, refused in great part to continue in service. But it is hardly necessary to say that Captain Lincoln was not one of these homesick soldiers. Not even the trammels of rank, which are usually so strong among the trailers of the saber, could restrain him from what he considered his simple duty. As soon as he was mustered out of his captaincy, he re-enlisted on the same day, May 27, as a private soldier. Several other officers did the same, among them General Whitesides and Major John T. Stuart.
By Beowulf
Quote:
"Though he understood nothing of military discipline, and had to borrow a horse upon which to go to war, the men picked the lanky fellow in blue jeans because they liked him'".
Among those who enlisted at
the first tap of the drum was Abraham Lincoln, and equally to his
surprise and delight he was elected captain of his company. The
volunteer organizations of those days were conducted on purely
democratic principles. The company assembled on the green, an election
was suggested, and three-fourths of the men walked over to where
Lincoln was standing; most of the small remainder joined themselves to
one Kirkpatrick, a man of some substance and standing from Spring
Creek. We have the word of Mr. Lincoln for it, that no subsequent
success ever gave him such unmixed pleasure as this earliest
distinction. It was a sincere, unsought tribute of his equals to those
physical and moral qualities which made him the best man of his
hundred, and as such was accepted and prized.
Tuesday, May 29, 1832.
Fort Johnson at Ottawa, IL.
Lt. Robert Anderson musters Lincoln and 71 others into company of mounted volunteers under Capt. Elijah Iles. Company contains former generals, colonels, and captains. Lincoln furnishes his own arms and horse. Arms are valued at $10 and horse and equipment at $120. IHi—BHWC, Muster Roll, Atkinson Order Book; IHi—Journal, X, 422-28 (Anderson to E. B. Washburne, 10 May 1870).
Quote:
by Beowulf
"On July 10, after two reenlistments of a few weeks each, Abraham Lincoln's war service ended. He was never involved in any fighting..."
Lincoln himself said, more than once, that the only fighting he saw was that which was waged upon mosquitoes. Hardly a newly uncovered discovery.
During the Black Hawk War, Abraham Lincoln of New Salem, Illinois served three enlistments. Each enrollment lasted for approximately 30 days
Quote:
by Beowulf
"Lincoln was mustered out of the army more than a fortnight before the first of the only two real fights occurred."
Lincoln re-enlisted on the same day he mustered out of his old company, and was mustered in on May 29 as a private in Captain Elijah Ises' Company, Twenty-Day Interim Regiment. He actively served with the company when General Henry Atkinson detached Captain Iles' command to ride north from Ottawa along the Kellogg Trail and reopen communications with Galena-- which had been out of touch with the rest of the world since the Felix St. Vrain Massacre. As part of this movement, Iles’ company (including Lincoln) spent an overnight at Apple River Fort... about a week before Black Hawk's attack against that strongpoint later in June. Once this ride was completed, the service of Iles’ company was essentially at an end. On June 16, Lincoln was mustered out.
Quote:
by Beowulf
..." having lost his horse, he was forced to walk home most of the way..."
Lincoln had need, like Horatio, of his good spirits,
for they were his only outfit for the long journey to New Salem, he
and his mess-mate Harrison [Footnote: George M. Harrison, who gives an
account of his personal experiences in Lamon, p. 116.] having had their horses stolen the day before by some patriot over-anxious to
reach home.
Quote:
by Beowulf
When you attack the Southern leader, you attack all Confederate soldiers whom you claim to honor.
I do honor them, and I would never dishonor them by lumping them in with Jeff Davis and the hacks who "led" the Confederacy.
Quote:
The violent reactions to Davis and the South, today, are welcomed as a form of jealousy
.
Yes, right Beowolf, I'm jealous that I was never able to take control of a section of the country, and its people, economy, and guide them straight into utter devastation and ruin.
Terry
__________________ "In this great struggle, this form of Government and every form of human right is endangered if our enemies succeed. There is more involved in this contest than is realized by every one." Abraham Lincoln - August 18, 1864 Speech to the 164th Ohio Regiment
So, I assume that you are cool with the Colonel Davis heroism section a bit later in Strode's book?
The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?
I didn't hear any problems there.
(But, you know, if any of your historians had mentioned this stuff about brother Lincoln, then... they wouldn't be your historians for very long, would they?).
I daresay no one has won an Abraham Lincoln award for
bringing up these less than savory elements, especially since the audience is armed with real invective!
Dear Beowulf,
Thanks for replying to my post. (your reply 501) I found your explanation of the various terms "fire eater" "Unionist" "abolitionist" "Collective ideology" and "liberal" that you used quite different, and even opposite, to the meanings usually assigned them. Your explanation is unique, at least to me. And as I posted before, these labels have little or no meaning when attached to the upcountry farmers who were skeptical of breaking up the country over slavery.
You threw out some other labels over various political factions in the North. In one way they are a mirror image of the Southern scene. In the 1860 and 1864, the most violently racist rhetoric was hurled at Lincoln by peace democrats and other political opponents. Opposition to the Union war effort, even within the Union, was deeply soaked in racial prejudice.
Correct me if I misread the post. Grant attacked the fort with 3 companies, 300 men, and was forced to retreat. Davis shows up with his regiment and leads 2 regiments in another attack and takes the fort. How many men were in those 2 regiments?
However, this site contains Taylor's After Action Report of the battle, if you want to look. It includes a tribute to Davis and his Mississippi Riflemen. http://www.dmwv.org/mexwar/documents/bvista.htm
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
That's all you got?! No drinking out of a horse bucket?
No forced leaving his lamps on in his cell as a source of irritation, spoken of in Varina's writings? No exposure to the elements in the dungeon-like casemate? (Looks more like a bed and breakfast nowadays, I am told!).
No constant tramping of soldiers feet to irritate him to distraction? No deprivation of reading materials? No forced
seclusion from anyone at all, even family, for a good while? No orders to the guards that they were not to speak to him? Now how does that compare to the average experiance of a POW at say Andersonville, Rock Island... torture; please.
The worst serial killers today would have the Modern Left in a blind rage over any one of these, and you say NO TORTURE? Of course you do... Davis was not even remotely tortured; his experiance was nothing even remotely like that of the average POW. You know the men who did the fighting and dieing. The modern day "left" wouldn't know torture from a frat party... as I am beginning to wonder if you do.
He should have been given, the same type of rations given to the men of the ANV or of the US Army.
And the chains business? The leg-irons? Again, we see the depravity of his captors, (as he was no escape risk), and the degree of his intended humiliation - was punitive long before any DUE PROCESS which "certain" was all so hot to have forced into "law", with all its attendant riders!
Davis benefitted from no due process. They knew they could never take him to court! What due proces was awarded those Regulars in Texas who languished two years at hard labor. THey'd never done anything but defend the Texans from Commanches... and for that they were joyfully put to hard labor beside hardened criminals. I wonder if any of those men looked to Davis's time as a POW as torture, or what about a survivor of Andersonville? Now what exactly do you think a veteran of Rock Island prison barracks would think of your whining over the treatment of Davis? Davis was a POW, frankly the man was extremely lucky not to have been shot or hanged on the spot by the men who captured him, now where were his bodyguards during that capture were they willing ot die for the man? Where was he when he was captured? Where was he going and what was he planning to do. You answer those questions and you might just get a flash as to why the US wasn't real eager to let your hero go.
Davis would have stood up in court and destroyed the very 'case' against him! I doubt that very much.
Most eloquently...
Unlike you I've never been overly awed by his eloquence he sounds just like any other politician of that day or any other. Frankly, his memoirs interested me far less than Longstreet or even Hoods. In their own way Hoods were far more engaging. A man like Twain never went running to offer his literary assistance to the man; instead he gave it to a "villain" like Grant.
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
That's all you got?! No drinking out of a horse bucket?
His cell had no running water so a water bucket was placed in his cell so he could drink when he was thirsty instead of being forced to beg for water when he was thirsty. The bucket was also used as water source for his basin when he washed his hands and face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
No forced leaving his lamps on in his cell as a source of irritation, spoken of in Varina's writings?
"Toward the end of September Mr. Davis was transferred from the casemates to quarters in Carroll Hall--a detached two-story brick building at the north angle of the parade ground, which before the war had been the favorite residence of the unmarried officers of the garrison. The solicitude felt in Washington for the secure keeping of Mr. Davis was displayed here also in the peculiar arrangements for his accommodation. He occupied a second-story apartment in the southeast corner of the building, the strongly-barred windows of which on two sides opened upon a porch, where a sentinel was constantly on guard. The room was entered from the hall through an antechamber occupied by the Officer of the Guard, and in the partition between the apartments was a grated iron door, through which every movement of the prisoner was visible to that functionary." ["Three Military Prisons: Jefferson Davis' Confinement in Fort Monroe," _The New York Times,_ 19 Jun 1892]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
No exposure to the elements in the dungeon-like casemate? (Looks more like a bed and breakfast nowadays, I am told!).
You're told a lie. Either that or you're lying about being told that. I've been there and have seen it with my own eyes. It's in the same condition it was then.
"On Mr. Davis's arrival at the post he was confined in a casemate previously occupied as an officers' quarters, which had been vacated for conversion into a place of safe keeping for the distinguished prisoner. Gen. Halleck had personally superintended the preparations, and satisfied himself that no outlet existed for escape. The inner apartment of the casemate, the gunroom, was lighted through an embrasure opening on the southeast side of the work, and commanding a view across the moat, toward the distant Atlantic. This embrasure was closed with a heavy iron grating, and the doors communicating with the outer apartmetn, that opened on the parade, were closed by heavy double shutters fastened with cross-bars and padlocks. The side entrances had been walled up so that the room occupied by the captive was bounded on every side, as well as below and above, by solid masonry." ["Three Military Prisons: Jefferson Davis' Confinement in Fort Monroe," _The New York Times,_ 19 Jun 1892]
There was no exposure to the elements. You're believing lies again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
No constant tramping of soldiers feet to irritate him to distraction? No deprivation of reading materials? No forced
seclusion from anyone at all, even family, for a good while? No orders to the guards that they were not to speak to him?
"The Officer of the Guard was always ready enough to converse with him, if only to relieve the irksomeness of his own twenty-four hours of sequestration, the only respite he enjoyed being the brief intervals at meal times, when he was permitted to go to his quarters. In no circumstances was he allowed to leave the apartment with the opening bearing on Mr. Davis, unless the Officer of the Day was no the spot to take his place. Mr. Davis, in his turn, was often very sociable and ready to converse, having a large store of reminiscences of his own earlier military career, of which the young officers were always interested auditors.
"Besides conversation the only other indulgence accorded to Mr. Davis was that of regular outdoor exercise. Once a day, usually about noon, he was taken, under close guard, to make a single promenade around the ramparts. The inmates of the fort witnessed with varying sentiments the daily spectacle of the old man solemnly threading his way along the walls in rear of the barbette batteries, with armed sentinels at his heels and attended by the Officer of the Day, the Officer of the Guard, and the district commander, Gen. Miles." ["Three Military Prisons: Jefferson Davis' Confinement in Fort Monroe," _The New York Times,_ 19 Jun 1892]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
The worst serial killers today would have the Modern Left in a blind rage over any one of these,
BS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
and you say NO TORTURE? Of course you do...
Of course I do, because I'm interested in the truth of history, not mythology like you are.
"I served near enough to him [Gen Miles] through all of that exacting period to be authorized to assert from personal knowledge that his treatment of the captive was in every respect such as propriety, humanity, and a tolerate sympathy for a fallen chieftain representing a bad cause could possibly have dictated." ["Three Military Prisons: Jefferson Davis' Confinement in Fort Monroe," _The New York Times,_ 19 Jun 1892]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
And the chains business? The leg-irons? Again, we see the depravity of his captors, (as he was no escape risk), and the degree of his intended humiliation - was punitive long before any DUE PROCESS which "certain" was all so hot to have forced into "law", with all its attendant riders!
"The alterations of Mr. Davis's casemate had not been completed when he was placed in it, and on the following morning irons were fastened on his ankles to prevent any attempt at escaping, the air being full of rumors of concerted plans for his rescue. The indignity of this proceeding overcame the prisoner's fortitude, and a violent and pitiful scene ensued. The fetters were removed before many days." ["Three Military Prisons: Jefferson Davis' Confinement in Fort Monroe," _The New York Times,_ 19 Jun 1892]
I guess he cried and whined a lot like you seem to be doing, without cause. Wipe the tears from your face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Davis benefitted from no due process. They knew they could never take him to court!
I guess you've never heard of pretrial confinement. It's still done to this day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
Davis would have stood up in court and destroyed the very 'case' against him!
So, I assume that you are cool with the Colonel Davis heroism section a bit later in Strode's book?
The part where he bails Ulysses Grant's boys out?
I didn't hear any problems there.
Please educate me on this. Since Ulysses S. Grant was a quartermaster in the Mexican War and commanded no troops during the conflict, how could what you claim happen have happened, i.e., that Davis bailed "Ulysses Grant's boys out?" Does Mr. Strode make this claim? What does he use as his source?
Please educate me on this. Since Ulysses S. Grant was a quartermaster in the Mexican War and commanded no troops during the conflict, how could what you claim happen have happened, i.e., that Davis bailed "Ulysses Grant's boys out?" Does Mr. Strode make this claim? What does he use as his source?
Regards,
Cash
I didn't say he commanded anyone. The boys were "with" Grant, not under his command. Like you would be if you were "with" an outfit; they'd be "your" boys. Grant's boys,
(as in the ones he's with), are getting decimated.
"The rest, including a young lieutenant named Ulysses S. Grant, retired". (retreated). STRODE
The English language is cruel, like that. "Grant's Boys" could be subordinates, or they could also be equal comrades. I never implied he was their leader, simply because he led troops later on...
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