Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
At least we agree that within the rank and file it was not a major issue. Please note I have never said Slavery was not an issue. i just do not believe it to be THE issue.
Regarding desertion and draft, see new york draft riots. As you alluded too, things were about equal. I believe the only reason southern desertion rates were higher were more difficult living conditions.
I think we can agree that both sides had honorable men in the rank and file.
I think we can both agree (I hope) that the average soldier was not fighting for or against slavery.
Thats a lot to agree on. Now we can get to the big one. The politicians. What they fought over. Or started wars over.
NOTE: Politics, from the latin, poly meaning many, tics meaning blood sucking bugs.
Thank you for your above posts and I do understand what you are saying and why you would not agree (or have to) with my own conclusions.
Remington College? In what city or town is that located in/nearby?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Raymond says: NOTE: Politics, from the latin, poly meaning many, tics meaning blood sucking bugs.
Geez, that's a good one, Ray. LOL And there's no doubt that politicians on both sides started this war. Too bad they didn't have to fight it. But isn't it an everlasting truth that politicians are always the ones who start wars!
And as a matter of record, for the benefit of the newcomers to this board, I don't believe any Southerner on this board has ever stated that slavery was absolutely not the cause of the WBTS. In my case it's my opinion that slavery was not the cause, per se. I am of the opinion that tariffs and states rights were the main factors. Slavery was listed as an issue, I believe, because the Confederate nation thought this would carry the most weight towards secession. But tariffs and enfringement of states rights had been brewing since the American Revolution. North and South had never been of one mind. But, the overwhelming factor to me was the invasion of Northern troops on Southern soil. Once that happened, there was nothing on earth that would have stopped the war. Just as <u>I</u> believe this, <u>Neil</u> will tell you that it was the Southerners firing on Ft. Sumter, which Northerners believed to be Federal property. And if you read Personal Opinions I and II you'll see that arguments have been brought forth saying in effect: what was the big deal there? The South had been taking things for months before this. That's how we evolved to the Ft. Sumter thread: what was so important about that harbor?
So you can see, with each person giving their view, it gets batted around by proponents and opponents: someone will throw a curve ball and we start another thread. The whole thing here is like a giant tapestry. And it's great!
And for any of the newbies onboard,I offer this suggestion: If you really want to get a basic understanding of how this group has evolved, read Part 1 and Part 11 of Personal Opinions in their entirety. This will give an idea of how far afield we've gone on various topics. Plus it will save back-tracking over areas we've covered. Also, you may very well want to add your own opinions there to the "Everlasting Soup" and we could be off and running again with your new insights.
It will take quite a while to read, but I think you'll find that we've run the gamut in many areas. The most amazing thing is that we've never convinced anyone to swap allegiance, but we still maintain this camraderie even though we butt heads almost every single day! We rejoice over a new grandchild, mourn over the death of a member, and wish each other better health when one of us gets sick. All in all, we are an odd lot but with one common goal: we love the history of the WBTS.
I came to these boards after being on several others with a view of only discussing secession, which I still believe to be legal, and the issue of tariffs. And as the old cigarette advertisement went, "Baby, You've come a long way!" And on this path I've met many people with a kaleidoscope of ideas.
I too believe that the average soldier, whether Yank or Reb, was not fighting either for or against slavery. And with reading reams of "Soldiers Stories" I have come away with awe and the deepest respect for the men of both the Blue and Gray. The only words to describe these foot soldiers are valorous and faithful: valorous (brave)despite whatever trials and tribulations they confronted: faithful to their beliefs in the right of their actions and the justness for whatever banner they fought under.
Till we meet again,
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
Remington College actually has about 20 campuses nationwide. It is a 2 year college which provides associates degrees in a number of subjects from Computer sciences to business to medical "stuff".
I teach Web Design and a few other subjects.
My campus is just outside of Cleveland Ohio in Maple Hts. Ohio, just about a mile into the "burbs"
New Orleans Daily Crescent-1861, "They (the South) know that it is their import trade that draws from the people's pockets sixty or seventy millions of dollars per annum, in the shape of duties, to be expended mainly in the North, and in the protection and encouragement of Northern interest.... These are the reasons why these people do not wish the South to secede from the Union. They (the North) are enraged at the prospect of being despoiled of the rich feast
upon which they have so long fed and fattened, and which they were just getting ready to enjoy with still greater gout and gusto. They are as mad as hornets because the prize slips them just as they are ready to grasp it."
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
In 1860, the net tariff, which is the amount collected minus the cost of maintaining the customs houses, was approximately $52,300,000, nowhere near the sixty or seventy million claimed by the New Orleans _Crescent._ Of that amount, $48.3 million, or 92.4% of the total, was collected in Northern ports, while only $4.0 million, or only 7.6%, was collected in Southern ports. The Port of New York alone collected $34.9 million.
Source: Douglas B. Ball, _Financial Failure and Confederate Defeat, p. 205. Table 18 gives "Trade Figures by Port in 1860" and "Customs Collections by Major Port (1860)."
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Why aren't Tariffs considered as a serious cause of the Civil War in your opinion? As you can see, the issue has been beaten to death many times on this board. Are tariffs sufficent to have caused the Civil War on their own merit?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
"Why aren't Tariffs considered as a serious cause of the Civil War in your opinion?"
----------------
The tariff in 1860 was at its lowest point in 50 years, and any tariff increase could not pass the Senate without support from southerners. Additionally, the secessionists were nice enough to tell us in no uncertain terms why they were seceding, and it wasn't because of tariffs. "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery." [Mississippi Declaration of Causes]
"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery." [Georgia Declaration of Causes]
"Our people have come to this on the question of slavery. I am willing, in that address to rest it upon that question. I think it is the great central point from which we are now proceeding, and I am not willing to divert the public attention from it." [Lawrence Keitt, South Carolina Secession Debates, 20 Dec 1860]
"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact." [Alexander Stephens, Savannah, Georgia, 21 Mar 1861]
"It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern States and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community. . . . Shall we wait until our enemies shall possess themselves of all the powers of the Government? until Abolition Judges are on the Supreme Court bench, Abolition Collectors at every port, and Abolition Postmasters in every town, secret mail agents traversing the whole land, and a subsidized Press established in our midst to demoralize the people? Will we be stronger then, or better prepared to meet the struggle, if a struggle must come? No, verily!" [Letter of Stephen F. Hale to Gov. Magoffin of Kentucky, 27 Dec 1860]
"If the policy of the Republicans is carried out, according to the programme indicated by the leaders of the party, and the South submits, degradation and ruin must overwhelm alike all classes of citizens in the Southern States. The slave-holder and non-slave-holder must ultimately share the same fate-- all be degraded to a position of equality with free negroes, stand side by side with them at the polls, and fraternize in all the social relations of life; or else there will be an eternal war of races, desolating the land with blood, and utterly wasting and destroying all the resources of the country.
"Who can look upon such a picture without a shudder? What Southern man, be he slave-holder or non-slave-holder, can without indignation and horror contemplate the triumph of negro equality, and see his own sons and daughters, in the not distant future, associating with free negroes upon terms of political and social equality, and the white man stripped, by the Heaven-daring hand of fanaticism of that title to superiority over the black race which God himself has bestowed?" [Ibid.]
"Are tariffs sufficent to have caused the Civil War on their own merit?"
----------------
No. Not in any way, shape, or form. Slavery was the only issue that could not be compromised.
As much as I agree with you and my own research has proven to me that the tariff was as much a cause of the Civil War as the number of left-handed men in the country at the time, this issue does not seem to want to go away.
Time and time again, the Morril Tariff is held up as the cause of the war, that the North was 'gunning' for the South solely for the money generated by the tariff. Newspaper articles are pointed out by those who put forth this theory wherein Northern interests are afraid of losing their cash cow, the South. Dickens has been quoted as saying the 'real' cause of the Civil War was over money and for no other good reason.
It has even been proposed to me that the issue of slavery was merely a 'front' an easier cause to rally support for secession, than over the real reason of the tariff. Slavery is at least a mere side issue, while the economic warfare of the North and Lincoln wanting to keep Ft. Sumter as a collection for the tariff the real reason for the war. You of course have heard the quotes that Lincoln gave saying that he must collect the tariff at the beginning of his administration. How can this all be dismissed?
And, yes, I am playing devil's advocate here.
YMOS,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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