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Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

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  #131  
Old 02-02-2006, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Wild Rose,

You will note that I do not mention in my post who killed who, just the total number of deaths that was brought about by the war.

My contention was, with the tariff as a minor issue in comparison what I consider the main reason, a $1.94 paid once a year just does not seem sufficent motive for the North and the South to kill one another in large numbers.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
I understand that, Neil, and I know you didn't specifically say it was the South's fault, but on this board the blame for the entire war has generally been lain at the feet of the Southern states. I was only pointing out that one group can't have a war without the other opposing side being involved.
Regards,
Rose
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  #132  
Old 02-02-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cedarstripper
Challenge to Battalion. Your claim was that the South paid the majority of the tariff collections. Support that claim or say Uncle.

Cedarstripper

Corresponding Challenge-

Prove that the North's purchase of imports -by consumers- was in the same relation to its population-

70% population/70% purchase....65%/65%, etc (whatever percentage and combination of states you may use)

Last edited by Battalion; 02-02-2006 at 11:30 AM.
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  #133  
Old 02-02-2006, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
Corresponding Challenge-

Prove that the North's purchase of imports (by consumers) was in the same relation to its population-

70% population/70% purchase....65%/65%, etc (whatever percentage and combination of states you may use)
That is the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. Those who claim southerners paid the majority of the tariff have the burden to prove their statement. It is not incumbent on those who deny that claim to prove anything else.

Regards,
Cash
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  #134  
Old 02-02-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
That is the logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. Those who claim southerners paid the majority of the tariff have the burden to prove their statement. It is not incumbent on those who deny that claim to prove anything else.

Regards,
Cash
You have one big problem.........

........you have a coresponding claim when you deny the other........

........prove YOUR claim........

*

If you cannot prove the North purchased items in relation to its population......

......then what does your denial (of my claim) stand on?

Last edited by Battalion; 02-02-2006 at 12:04 PM.
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  #135  
Old 02-02-2006, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
You have one big problem.........
No, I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
........you have a coresponding claim when you deny the other........



........prove YOUR claim........

*

If you cannot prove the North purchased items in relation to its population......

......then what does your denial (of my claim) stand on?

Again, that is the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on those who make the positive assertion. You claimed the south paid the largest share of the tariff burden. It is your burden to prove that claim. Those who claim that is not the case have no burden of proof.

Person 1 asserts Claim A.

Person 2 says Claim A is not correct.

Person 1 then says, "Prove not-A."

This is shifting the burden of proof. I could make any outrageous claim I like, such as Stonewall Jackson and JEB Stuart were gay lovers. The burden of proof is on me. If you deny it and say they weren't, then if I were to say to you, "You have a corresponding claim when you deny the other. Prove your claim." Then I am shifting the burden of proof to you. So prove they weren't.

Regards,
Cash
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  #136  
Old 02-02-2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cash
Again, that is the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. The burden of proof is on those who make the positive assertion. You claimed the south paid the largest share of the tariff burden. It is your burden to prove that claim. Those who claim that is not the case have no burden of proof.
Regards,
Cash

They have made a "positive assertion" in stating that the respective populations of North and South purchased items in the same relation to that population.

Let them prove it....
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  #137  
Old 02-02-2006, 09:19 PM
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Wild Rose,

I agree with your post 131 completely. It does take two sides to engage in a war.

But it only takes one side to begin it, especially with gunfire.

And the implements of war, the destruction it brings and the lives it takes, are far more costly that $1.94 a year.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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  #138  
Old 02-03-2006, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battalion
They have made a "positive assertion" in stating that the respective populations of North and South purchased items in the same relation to that population.

Let them prove it....
Occam's Razor.

Cedarstripper
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  #139  
Old 02-04-2006, 12:07 AM
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Cedarstripper, Cash & Battalion,

Occam's Razor:

http://2think.org/occams_razor.shtml

Just wanted to check and make sure we were all on the 'same page.'

Sincerely,
Unionblue
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"The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass

"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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  #140  
Old 02-05-2006, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Just wanted to check and make sure we were all on the 'same page.'
Neil,
I'd sooner think that crop circles were caused by UFO's than the small market of the South Eleven bought the majority of dutiable imports brought into the US.

The claim has its genesis in a couple of places, which are all flawed.

First, Jabez Curry's speech relies on the pure fiction of his making, and is disproven by the very same source he claims to base it on.

Second, it is clear that the gross percentage of exports of southern crops is thought to be equal to percentage of imports. This also is fiction. It totally ignores domestic commerce.

Third, it is assumed that since the Northeast produces more manufactures, they therefore have no reason to buy imports; whereas the South must buy dutiable imports. This too is fiction. Foreign imports and exports are constantly conflated with domestic imports and exports.

Fourth, it is further assumed that duties only were collected on manufactures such as the North would produce, ignoring the duties collected on sugar, tabacco, hemp, and the raw materials and machinery used by industry.

Occam's Razor applies here, because there has been no evidence to show that a small southern market bought most of the dutiable articles imported into the US chiefly through northern ports. The claim is implausible both on its face and on deeper investigation. We should accept the plausible over the implausible.

But plausibility is not the end of it. Commerce generally evolves in natural channels. If the small population of the South was indeed the great marketplace for foreign goods and the great concentration of liquid wealth, then the South is where great shipping and banking should have evolved. But it didn't. While the entrance of 93% of imports through the North is not proof that they are consumed there, the phenomenon does suggest that they were not mostly then sent south. And there is no reason to believe that any of the imports entering through the ports of the West Coast or upper New England states in 1860 ended up in the South Eleven.

While I have not seen southern testimony claiming that the stores are mostly shelved with foreign goods, I have seen testimony that the purchases of the South are mostly the domestic products of the North. A glance at a map of railroads in 1860 shows without doubt the enormous lead in mileage of track outside the South Eleven, and therefore shows an equal lead in iron consumption. Consumption of woolens, cottons, sugar, coffee and tea, cigars, nails, and every other article can at least safely be assumed to have been purchased in relative proportion to population.....(at least requests to specify which articles were bought predominately in the South have always gone unanswered), and of course this meant mostly NOT in the South. The mostly overlooked consumption of raw and finished materials of every industry from iron making to textile manufacture to shipbuilding was admittedly not southern.

All in all, I think its pretty easy to make a very reasonably case that the majority of consumption of goods, both foreign and domestic, was in the dense marketplace of the North and West. Occam would think so too.

Cedarstripper
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