Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
I have asked how the tariff affected the average citizen. I have found my answer.
In 1860 the entire United States collected duties worth $53 million, or $1.94 per free resident. For the entire year, I might add. My source is taken from U.S. revenues for Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1957, (Washington, D.C: Government Printing Office, 1960), 539.
It is also interesting to note that the imports from the North during 1860 totaled $200 million. These are NOT tariff items imported by the South, but items not affected by the tariff which the South HAD to buy from the North as it had no way to produce it as it had neither the factories or means to produce them in their states. The following is a list of items that were imported by the South from the North.
Canned, Smoked fish $3 million
Coffee 0
Sugar, Brown Molasses 0
Salt 0
Tea 4 million
Soap & candles 6
paper 7
Cotton Woven Goods 27
Woolen Goods 34
Ready-made clothing 24
Hosiery 4
Hats 7
Shoes 30
Linen Goods 4
Furniture 1
Carpeting 4
Musical instruments 2
Cast Iron Stoves 11
Farm Implements 4
Nails & spikes 2
Bar, sheet & railroad iron 8
Pig Iron 6
Cigars 0
Silk goods 12
TOTAL $200 million
It should also be noted, if the South had been able to collect tariffs under it's own enacted Confederate Tariff schedules passed in May 1861, and if the North had not pursued war, the possible collection of tariffs from both the North and Europe would have been around anywhere from $34 million (best upper-end estimate) to $25 million (consumers may have decided to purchase fewer manufactured goods in the face of higher prices and loss due to smuggling), free Southerners would have paid $4.46 per resident.
The following figures are given in a speed by Senator Bigler in the Senate with Treasury statistics in February, 1860. Compare these figures to see the difference in what the South imported and paid for and what the North kept and paid for in tariff revenues.
Brown Sugar - Tariff collected at 24% - $7,430,000.
Molasses - Tariff collected - $1,800,000.
Coffee - Tariff collected at 1.5 cents/pound - $3,962,433.
Tea - Tariff collected at 4 cents/pound - $1,338,866.
Woolens - Tariff collected - $8,155,000.
Silks - Tariffs collected - $5,589,000.
Flax & Hemp - Tariff collected - $1,728,000.
Iron & Iron manufactures - Tariff collected - $4,458,000.
Wines - Tariff collected - $1,134,000.
Brandy - Tariff collected - $1,181,000.
Cottons - Tariff collected - $6,500,000. (Remember, this is NOT on Southern cotton exported from the US to other countries, but foreign cotton coming into the US from overseas. Southern Senators insisted that Southern cotton be protected by the tariff, EVERY tariff passed by the US Congress.)
Total - $43,276,299 Tariff collected on approximately $200,000,000 of goods imported. In addition, on an additional $79,000,000 of mixed goods (not listed here), and additional $11.8 million was collected.
Let's compare:
1860 Tariff paid by the South/1860 Tariff paid by the North.
Brown Sugar 0 / $7,430,000.
Molasses 0 / $1,800,000.
Coffee 0 / $3,962,433.
Tea 0 / $1,338,866.
Woolens $1,000,000 / $8,155,000. (subtract from the South, $7,155,000)
Silks 0 / $5,589,000.
The above were the only catagories I could be sure of when comparing the two sections (the South and the rest of the US), but it seems clear that the items show a clear view that the South was not paying anything close to 80% of the tariffs nor was the South burdened in any way by the tariff.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I have asked how the tariff affected the average citizen. I have found my answer.
In 1860 the entire United States collected duties worth $53 million, or $1.94 per free resident. For the entire year, I might add. My source is taken from U.S. revenues for Historical Statistics of the United States, Colonial Times to 1957, (Washington, D.C: Government Printing Office, 1960), 539.
Thank you for this valuable information.
best,
marc
__________________ "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
The above were the only catagories I could be sure of when comparing the two sections (the South and the rest of the US), but it seems clear that the items show a clear view that the South was not paying anything close to 80% of the tariffs nor was the South burdened in any way by the tariff.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
As I understand the argument between North and South over the amount of tax paid by the South it comes down to exports. The theory agreed on by both sides is that without exports, there could be no imports. Because the South leads in exports she, therefore, leads in importing. Again, there seemed to be no argument there. As Mr. Rapes, arguing the Northern side, explains, the exports could have been something other than cotton from any other section of the country with the same results, although he doesn’t say what that could have been and he goes on to suggest that perhaps the country didn’t necessarily need to import so much.
Mr. Curry, of the South, claims, “The commerce of this country is based upon southern productions, and exports are the basis of imports. One article alone, cotton --- of which we exported last year $191,806,555 --- is said to be King.” He substantiates his claim with statistics.
Mr. Rapes claims the South has contributed very little to the Federal Treasury.
Mr. Curry says, of the $316,220,610, in exports, the South is responsible for $214,322,880 that is exclusively Southern products that cannot be produced anywhere else in the country.
At any rate, it doesn’t seem to be a matter of who consumed the imports that is the crux of the argument…or at least the argument between the North and South in the 1800’s.
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
While it's interesting to discuss whether tariffs or slavery were the reasons for secession, I maintain it doesn't matter what those reasons were. Either the right to secede existed or it didn't. The why of it makes no difference to the question of secession.
If there was a right to secede the reason for secession doesn't matter. If there was no right to secede, there is no reason that would make any difference.
Regards,
Rose
__________________ "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names".--J.F.K.
The War Between the States established... This principle that the Federal Government is, through its courts, this final judge of its own powers.
-- Woodrow Wilson
There is an old legal maxim:
"If the facts of the case favor your client, argue the facts,
If the facts don't favor your client, argue the law"
I think this is the point where we start to argue the law.
Good point. Why not a new thread on the Legality of Secession? (The old one is thoroughly polluted at this point.) This one can continue on tariffs -- Rose's post still requires some comment. Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The following figures are given in a speed by Senator Bigler in the Senate with Treasury statistics in February, 1860. Compare these figures to see the difference in what the South imported and paid for and what the North kept and paid for in tariff revenues.
Brown Sugar - Tariff collected at 24% - $7,430,000.
Molasses - Tariff collected - $1,800,000.
Coffee - Tariff collected at 1.5 cents/pound - $3,962,433.
Tea - Tariff collected at 4 cents/pound - $1,338,866.
Woolens - Tariff collected - $8,155,000.
Silks - Tariffs collected - $5,589,000.
Flax & Hemp - Tariff collected - $1,728,000.
Iron & Iron manufactures - Tariff collected - $4,458,000.
Wines - Tariff collected - $1,134,000.
Brandy - Tariff collected - $1,181,000.
Cottons - Tariff collected - $6,500,000. (Remember, this is NOT on Southern cotton exported from the US to other countries, but foreign cotton coming into the US from overseas. Southern Senators insisted that Southern cotton be protected by the tariff, EVERY tariff passed by the US Congress.)
Why do you assume this is raw cotton? The description of "cottonS" to me indicates a finished product- clothes made of cotton (little of which was produced in the South except for homemade items).
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Total - $43,276,299 Tariff collected on approximately $200,000,000 of goods imported. In addition, on an additional $79,000,000 of mixed goods (not listed here), and additional $11.8 million was collected.
Let's compare:
1860 Tariff paid by the South/1860 Tariff paid by the North.
Brown Sugar 0 / $7,430,000.
Molasses 0 / $1,800,000.
Agree. The South wouldn't need to import much of this (but depends on how much of the finished product was made in the South).
Later...
...from the Duff Green pamphlet-
"...The specie imports at the South are mostly silver from Mexico, and of the merchandize, coffee counts $9,731,617; sugar for $3,500,000..."
$3,500,000 x .24 = $840,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Coffee 0 / $3,962,433.
Tea 0 / $1,338,866.
Disagree. The South did not produce these items...how do you figure Zero?
Again...
...from the Duff Green pamphlet-
"...The specie imports at the South are mostly silver from Mexico, and of the merchandize, coffee counts $9,731,617..."
$9,731,617 x .24 = $2,335,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionblue
Woolens $1,000,000 / $8,155,000. (subtract from the South, $7,155,000)
Silks 0 / $5,589,000.
Strongly disagree. These are finished products...not raw materials. The North produces plenty of wool and woolen items...the South does not. It has to either buy from the North or import.
(Notice again- it doesn't say "wool" or "silk"...but woolens and silks
Silks would probably be pro-rata...how do you figure Zero? (The South buys NO silk items?)
...imports from the North [to the South] during 1860 totaled $200 million. These are NOT tariff items imported by the South, but items not affected by the tariff which the South HAD to buy from the North as it had no way to produce it as it had neither the factories or means to produce them in their states. The following is a list of items that were imported by the South from the North.
Canned, Smoked fish $3 million
Coffee 0
Sugar, Brown Molasses 0
Salt 0
Tea 4 million
Soap & candles 6
paper 7
Cotton Woven Goods 27
Woolen Goods 34
Ready-made clothing 24
Hosiery 4
Hats 7
Shoes 30
Linen Goods 4
Furniture 1
Carpeting 4
Musical instruments 2
Cast Iron Stoves 11
Farm Implements 4
Nails & spikes 2
Bar, sheet & railroad iron 8
Pig Iron 6
Cigars 0
Silk goods 12
TOTAL $200 million
Sincerely,
Unionblue
Review-......
Manufactured Goods, Year Ending 1 June 1860
The North
Region................Population .........Value of Mfg.Goods
New England........3,135,283 ...........$ 468,599,287
Middle.................8,333,230..............802, 338,392
Western.............10,249,421..............384,60 6,530
Pacific....................432,459...............7 1,229,989
Territories...............191,354................. 3,556,197
Total..................22,341,747..........$ 1,730,330,395
Less exported......................................50,0 00,000
Less sold to the South.........................200,000,000
Averages $39 consumption of manufactured goods by each person in the South (not including imports).
(This assumes that the South's export of manufactured items is zero...-not likely)
$66 / $39...the disparity would be made up by the purchase of imports...
Average consumed by entire population-
Produced by North.........$ 1,730,330,395
Produced by South..............155,531,281
Imported goods..................354,000,000
Less exports........................50,000,000
Net...............................$ 2,189,861,676 value in mfg. goods
Population...........................31,445,080
Average per person............$ 70
North before imports......$66
South before imports......$39
I do not accept the exclusion of the slave population as some have suggested here.
Slaves needed food, clothes, medicine, and tools to work with just as the Northern laborer.
(Actually, there is a good possibility that more money was expended per capita for the support of slaves than the Northern laborer spent on himself and family.)
This argument about Tariffs is a waste of time. the tariff issue was simply a red herring to distract from the true issue of the war which we all know was s.....y.
Anyone want to fill in the blanks/
Certainly....certainly.....it was "all about s.....y"........
...that it why the supposed "beneficiaries" of the war were treated like this
While I may have missed something when I quickly scanned your reply above, it seems to me your figures are supporting the idea that the North consumed more than the South and therefore spent more for the items it consumed. I have no argument with you there.
You may have also missunderstood when I put the '0' in the Southern consumption catagory. This was not to say the South did not produce any of the item in that catagory. It was to say it did NOT IMPORT any of that item so there was NO TARIFF paid by the South for that item.
This is not to say that the South did not cosume any of the said item, but mainly that it bought such items within the country, i.e., from the North, West, or other sections of the South.
The bottom line of my argument is, that the South simply did not pay the amounts you and others here at the board and elsewhere throughout the inter net have implied, i.e. 80% or 70% or 60%, not even 50% or 40%.
While you have supplied an amazing amount of data, I contend that the data you have shown at the very least provides a very confusing and unsupported basis for which you are endeavoring to show, that the war was caused by a heavy tariff burden. Yet again and again, no one has answered the direct question on how this was done. The 1857 Tariff, which was in effect, was considered one of the lowest tariffs enacted by Congress and the Morril Tariff had yet to take effect and even then, the Morril Tariff passed by the Congress did nothing to inflate the tariff to the levels claimed by those who support this contention as a cause of the South seceding or a major cause of the war.
One other thing that I have brought up before. If the South was being bled white by the Tariff and 80% of the tariff was being paid by the South, why did the Treasury at the start of the Civil War contain only two hundred thousand dollars?
It was only after the Battle of Bull Run did the Union, and Salmon Chase, decide that more money would be needed to support the war effort. In April 1862 did Chase issue $150 million on the credit of the United States. Five months later he ordered a second round of $150 million, and another $150 million the next year.
I submit to you, Battalion, the tariff was not the issue. Add to this the very real impact that the tariff had on individual free citizens of the United States, a yearly impact of $1.94, there is no smoking gun and no good reason to kill over 600,000 of your fellow citizens for millions and millions of dollars, far and above ANY tariff would collect over the coming years.
And now to you, Wild Rose.
In your posts above, you keep using the word 'tax' or 'taxes' as though the US or federal government got income through the method of direct taxiation on its citizens. You may not realize that this was NOT the case. Only States and local governments engaged in collecting taxes, NOT the federal government. If you are already aware of this, I apologize for the the repeat.
You also speak of exports. There was NO tax or tariff on exports, only IMPORTS. In other words, only if you did not buy your products locally but from overseas, did you have to pay a tariff on them. It is my opinion, that one had to be of considerable means in the South to do so and that the majority of the population in the South did not pay ANY tariffs at all. So why all the fuss over exports from the South? I do not deny that cotton exports made up a very large part of the overall exports from the US and was THE money-maker for the country. Southern congressmen had a right to claim 'Cotton is King' as it was the money-maker of US exports.
But the contention has been since the beginning of this thread that tariffs paid on IMPORTS was a cause of such contention between the North and the South, that such payments were a cause of the South's secession and the war. Poppycock.
Only the Confederate government, at its beginning, decided and passed legislation to have a tariff on BOTH exports and imports, NOT the United States government. If tariffs and the paying of such tariffs on imports were such a sensitive issue with the Southern people and its leaders, why have such a contentious form of revenue placed on BOTH imports AND exports? And remember, if this had been done with any sort of success, the average free white citizen of the South would have then been charged with paying $4.46 a year in tariffs, higher than the $1.94 he was paying while a citizen of the non-divided United States.
I'm sorry, Rose, but even though I know the value of a dollar was a lot more in 1860, I cannot bring myself to believe that the South would rise up over the idea of paying an average of a $1.94 a year to kill former brothers, fathers, sons and other relatives. It would take an issue of far greater depth and concern to do so.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
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, that the South simply did not pay the amounts you and others here at the board and elsewhere throughout the inter net have implied, i.e. 80% or 70% or 60%, not even 50% or 40%.
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