CivilWarTalk.com - A free and friendly Civil War community.
CivilWarTalk.com
The Dispatch Depot at Civil War Talk  

Go Back   The Dispatch Depot at Civil War Talk > The Backpack - Essential Discussions > Civil War History - Secession and Politics

Civil War History - Secession and Politics Was it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-02-2002, 11:51 AM
oldreb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wow! can you guys bend a fact to fit your needs!
The case of Fletcher v. Peck, 1810 was in fact a question of the Constitution of Georgia having given the right to sell unclaimed land. This ruling is about Contracts and the rights of a state to deal with contracts and has not one bleeding da*n thing to say about secession.

In the midst of the argument, Marshall pulls out the US Constitution only to prove that there is a higher law that says the "no state shall pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts."

Talk about a bloody reach trying to make the law say what YOU want it to.

Full text of the review of this law follows. I am still researching McCulloch v. Maryland



Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1




Document 12

Fletcher v. Peck

6 Cranch 87 1810
March 16, 1810. Marshall, Ch. J., delivered the opinion of the court as follows:

The pleadings being now amended, this cause comes on again to be heard on sundry demurrers, and on a special verdict.

The suit was instituted on several covenants contained in a deed made by John Peck, the defendant in error, conveying to Robert Fletcher, the plaintiff in error, certain lands which were part of a large purchase made by James Gunn and others, in the year 1795, from the state of Georgia, the contract for which was made in the form of a bill passed by the legislature of that state.

The first count in the declaration set forth a breach in the second covenant contained in the deed. The covenant is, "that the legislature of the state of Georgia, at the time of passing the act of sale aforesaid, had good right to sell and dispose of the same in the manner pointed out by the said act." The breach assigned is, that the legislature had no power to sell.

The plea in bar sets forth the constitution of the state of Georgia, and avers that the lands sold by the defendant to the plaintiff, were within that state. It then sets forth the granting act, and avers the power of the legislature to sell and dispose of the premises as pointed out by the act.

To this plea the plaintiff below demurred, and the defendant joined in demurrer.

That the legislature of Georgia, unless restrained by its own constitution, possesses the power of disposing of the unappropriated lands within its own limits, in such manner as its own judgment shall dictate, is a proposition not to be controverted. The only question, then, presented by this demurrer, for the consideration of the court, is this, did the then constitution of the state of Georgia prohibit the legislature to dispose of the lands, which were the subject of this contract, in the manner stipulated by the contract?

The question, whether a law be void for its repugnancy to the constitution, is, at all times, a question of much delicacy, which ought seldom, if ever, to be decided in the affirmative in a doubtful case. The court, when impelled by duty to render such a judgment, would be unworthy of its station, could it be unmindful of the solemn obligations which that station imposes. But it is not on slight implication and vague conjecture that the legislature is to be pronounced to have transcended its powers, and its acts to be considered as void. The opposition between the constitution and the law should be such that the judge feels a clear and strong conviction of their incompatibility with each other.

In this case the court can perceive no such opposition. In the constitution of Georgia, adopted in the year 1789, the court can perceive no restriction on the legislative power, which inhibits the passage of the act of 1795. The court cannot say that, in passing that act, the legislature has transcended its powers and violated the constitution.

In overruling the demurrer, therefore, to the first plea, the Circuit Court committed no error.

The 3d convenant is, that all the title which the state of Georgia ever had in the premises had been legally conveyed to John Peck, the grantor.

The 2d count assigns, in substance, as a breach of this covenant, that the original grantees from the state of Georgia promised and assured divers members of the legislature, then sitting in general assembly, that if the said members would assent to, and vote for, the passing of the act, and if the said bill should pass, such members should have a share of, and be interested in, all the lands purchased from the said state by virtue of such law. And that divers of the said members, to whom the said promises were made, were unduly influenced thereby, and, under such influence, did vote for the passing of the said bill; by reason whereof the said law was a nullity, &c., and so the title of the state of Georgia did not pass to the said Peck, &c.

The plea to this count, after protesting that the promises it alleges were not made, avers, that until after the purchase made from the original grantees by James Greenleaf, under whom the said Peck claims, neither the said James Greenleaf, nor the said Peck, nor any of the mesne vendors between the said Greenleaf and Peck, had any notice or knowledge that any such promises or assurances were made by the said original grantees, or either of them, to any of the members of the legislature of the state of Georgia.

To this plea the plaintiff demurred generally, and the defendant joined in the demurrer.

That corruption should find its way into the governments of our infant republics, and contaminate the very source of legislation, or that impure motives should contribute to the passage of a law, or the formation of a legislative contract, are circumstances most deeply to be deplored. How far a court of justice would, in any case, be competent, on proceedings instituted by the state itself, to vacate a contract thus formed, and to annul rights acquired, under that contract, by third persons having no notice of the improper means by which it was obtained, is a question which the court would approach with much circumspection. It may well be doubted how far the validity of a law depends upon the motives of its framers, and how far the particular inducements, operating on members of the supreme soverign power of a state, to the formation of a contract by that power, are examinable in a court of justice. If the principle be conceded, that an act of the supreme sovereign power might be declared null by a court, in consequence of the means which procured it, still would there be much difficulty in saying to what extent those means must be applied to produce this effect. Must it be direct corruption, or would interest or undue influence of any kind be sufficient? Must the vitiating cause operate on a majority, or on what number of the members? Would the act be null, whatever might be the wish of the nation, or would its obligation or nullity depend upon the public sentiment?

If the majority of the legislature be corrupted, it may well be doubted, whether it be within the province of the judiciary to control their conduct, and, if less than a majority act from impure motives, the principle by which judicial interference would be regulated, is not clearly discerned.

Whatever difficulties this subject might present, when viewed under aspects of which it may be susceptible, this court can perceive none in the particular pleadings now under consideration.

This is not a bill brought by the state of Georgia, to annul the contract, nor does it appear to the court, by this count, that the state of Georgia is dissatisfied with the sale that has been made. The case, as made out in the pleadings, is simply this: One individual who holds lands in the state of Georgia, under a deed covenanting that the title of Georgia was in the grantor, brings an action of covenant upon this deed, and assigns, as a breach, that some of the members of the legislature were induced to vote in favor of the law, which constituted the contract, by being promised an interest in it, and that therefore the act is a mere nullity.

This solemn question cannot be brought thus collaterally and incidentally before the court. It would be indecent in the extreme, upon a private contract between two individuals, to enter into an inquiry respecting the corruption of the sovereign power of a state. If the title be plainly deduced from a legislative act, which the legislature might constitutionally pass, if the act be clothed with all the requisite forms of a law, a court, sitting as a court of law, cannot sustain a suit brought by one individual against another founded on the allegation that the act is a nullity, in consequence of the impure motives which influenced certain members of the legislature which passed the law.

The Circuit Court, therefore, did right in overruling this demurrer.

The 4th covenant in the deed is, that the title to the premises has been in no way, constitutionally or legally, impaired by virtue of any subsequent act of any subsequent legislature of the state of Georgia.

The third count recites the undue means practiced on certain members of the legislature, as stated in the second count, and then alleges that, in consequence of these practices, and of other causes, a subsequent legislature passed an act annulling and rescinding the law under which the conveyance to the original grantees was made, declaring that conveyance void, and asserting the title of the state to the lands it contained. The court proceeds to recite at large, this rescinding act, and concludes with averring that, by reason of this act the title of the said Peck in the premises was constitutionally and legally impaired, and rendered null and void.

After protesting, as before, that no such promises were made as stated in this count, the defendant again pleads that himself and the first purchaser under the original grantees, and all intermediate holders of the property, were purchasers without notice.

To this plea there is a demurrer and joinder.

The importance and the difficulty of the questions, presented by these pleadings, are deeply felt by the court.

The lands in controversy vested absolutely in James Gunn and others, the original grantees, by the conveyance of the governor, made in pursuance of an act of assembly to which the legislature was fully competent. Being thus in full possession of the legal estate, they, for a valuable consideration, conveyed portions of the land to those who were willing to purchase. If the original transaction was infected with fraud, these purchasers did not participate in it, and had no notice of it. They were innocent. Yet the legislature of Georgia has involved them in the fate of the first parties to the transaction, and, if the act be valid, has annihilated their rights also.

The legislature of Georgia was a party to this transaction; and for a party to pronounce its own deed invalid, whatever cause may be assigned for its invalidity, must be considered as a mere act of power which must find its vindication in a train of reasoning not often heard in courts of justice.

But the real party, it is said, are the people, and when their agents are unfaithful, the acts of those agents cease to be obligatory.

It is, however, to be recollected that the people can act only by these agents, and that, while within the powers conferred on them, their acts must be considered as the acts of the people. If the agents be corrupt, others may be chosen, and, if their contracts be examinable, the common sentiment, as well as common usage of mankind, points out a mode by which this examination may be made, and their validity determined.

If the legislature of Georgia was not bound to submit its pretensions to those tribunals which are established for the security of property, and to decide on human rights, if it might claim to itself the power of judging in its own case, yet there are certain great principles of justice, whose authority is universally acknowledged, that ought not to be entirely disregarded.

If the legislature be its own judge in its own case, it would seem equitable that its decision should be regulated by those rules which would have regulated the decision of a judicial tribunal. The question was, in its nature, a question of title, and the tribunal which decided it was either acting in the character of a court of justice, and performing a duty usually assigned to a court, or it was exerting a mere act of power in which it was controlled only by its own will.

If a suit be brought to set aside a conveyance obtained by fraud, and the fraud be clearly proved, the conveyance will be set aside, as between the parties; but the rights of third persons, who are purchasers without notice, for a valuable consideration, cannot be disregarded. Titles which, according to every legal test, are perfect, are acquired with that confidence which is inspired by the opinion that the purchaser is safe. If there be any concealed defect, arising from the conduct of those who had held the property long before he acquired it, of which he had no notice, that concealed defect cannot be set up against him. He has paid his money for a title good at law, he is innocent, whatever may be the guilt of others, and equity will not subject him to the penalties attached to that guilt. All titles would be insecure, and the intercourse between man and man would be very seriously obstructed, if this principle be overturned.

A court of chancery, therefore, had a bill been brought to set aside the conveyance made to James Gunn and others, as being obtained by improper practices with the legislature, whatever might have been its decision as respected the original grantees, would have been bound, by its own rules, and by the clearest principles of equity, to leave unmolested those who were purchasers, without notice, for a valuable consideration.

If the legislature felt itself absolved from those rules of property which are common to all the citizens of the United States, and from those principles of equity which are acknowledged in all our courts, its act is to be supported by its power alone, and the same power may devest any other individual of his lands, if it shall be the will of the legislature so to exert it.

It is not intended to speak with disrespect of the legislature of Georgia, or of its acts. Far from it. The question is a general question, and is treated as one. For although such powerful objections to a legislative grant, as are alleged against this, may not again exist, yet the principle, on which alone this rescinding act is to be supported, may be applied to every case to which it shall be the will of any legislature to apply it. The principle is this: that a legislature may, by its own act, devest the vested estate of any man whatever, for reasons which shall, by itself, be deemed sufficient.

In this case the legislature may have had ample proof that the original grant was obtained by practices which can never be too much reprobated, and which would have justified its abrogation so far as respected those to whom crime was imputable. But the grant, when issued, conveyed an estate in fee-simple to the grantee, clothed with all the solemnities which law can bestow. This estate was transferable; and those who purchased parts of it were not stained by that guilt which infected the original transaction. Their case is not distinguishable from the ordinary case of purchasers of a legal estate without knowledge of any secret fraud which might have led to the emanation of the original grant. According to the well known course of equity, their rights could not be affected by such fraud. Their situation was the same, their title was the same, with that of every other member of the community who holds land by regular conveyances from the original patentee.

Is the power of the legislature competent to the annihilation of such title, and to a resumption of the property thus held?

The principle asserted is, that one legislature is competent to repeal any act which a former legislature was competent to pass; and that one legislature cannot abridge the powers of a succeeding legislature.

The correctness of this principle, so far as respects general legislation, can never be controverted. But, if an act be done under a law, a succeeding legislature cannot undo it. The past cannot be recalled by the most absolute power. Conveyances have been made; those conveyances have vested legal estates, and, if those estates may be seized by the sovereign authority, still, that they originally vested is a fact, and cannot cease to be a fact.

When, then, a law is in its nature a contract, when absolute rights have vested under that contract, a repeal of the law cannot devest those rights; and the act of annulling them, if legitimate, is rendered so by a power applicable to the case of every individual in the community.

It may well be doubted whether the nature of society and of government does not prescribe some limits to the legislative power; and, if any be prescribed, where are they to be found, if the property of an individual, fairly and honestly acquired, may be seized without compensation?

To the legislature all legislative power is granted; but the question, whether the act of transferring the property of an individual to the public, be in the nature of the legislative power, is well worthy of serious reflection.

It is the peculiar province of the legislature to prescribe general rules for the government of society; the application of those rules to individuals in society would seem to be the duty of other departments. How far the power of giving the law may involve every other power, in cases where the constitution is silent, never has been, and perhaps never can be, definitely stated.

The validity of this rescinding act, then, might well be doubted, were Georgia a single sovereign power. But Georgia cannot be viewed as a single, unconnected, sovereign power, on whose legislature no other restrictions are imposed than may be found in its own constitution. She is a part of a large empire; she is a member of the American Union; and that Union has a constitution the supremacy of which all acknowledge, and which imposes limits to the legislatures of the several states, which none claim a right to pass. The constitution of the United States declares that no state shall pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts.

Does the case now under consideration come within this prohibitory section of the constitution?

In considering this very interesting question, we immediately ask ourselves what is a contract? Is a grant a contract?

A contract is a compact between two or more parties, and is either executory or executed. An executory contract is one in which a party binds himself to do, or not to do, a particular thing; such was the law under which the conveyance was made by the governor. A contract executed is one in which the object of contract is performed: and this, says Blackstone, differs in nothing from a grant. The contract between Georgia and the purchasers was executed by the grant. A contract executed, as well as one which is executory, contains obligations binding on the parties. A grant, in its own nature, amounts to an extinguishment of the right of the grantor, and implies a contract not to reassert that right. A party is, therefore, always estopped by his own grant.

Since, then, in fact, a grant is a contract executed, the obligation of which still continues, and since the constitution uses the general term contract, without distinguishing between those which are executory and those which are executed, it must be construed to comprehend the latter as well as the former. A law annulling conveyances between individuals, and declaring that the grantors should stand seized of their former estates, notwithstanding those grants, would be as repugnant to the constitution as a law discharging the vendors of property from the obligation of executing their contracts by conveyances. It would be strange if a contract to convey was secured by the constitution, while an absolute conveyance remained unprotected.

If, under a fair construction of the constitution, grants are comprehended under the term contracts, is a grant from the state excluded from the operation of the provision? Is the clause to be considered as inhibiting the state from impairing the obligation of contracts between two individuals, but as excluding from that inhibition contracts made with itself?

The words themselves contain no such distinction. They are general, and are applicable to contracts of every description. If contracts made with the state are to be exempted from their operation, the exception must arise from the character of the contracting party, not from the words which are employed.

Whatever respect might have been felt for the state sovereignties, it is not to be disguised that the framers of the constitution viewed, with some apprehension, the violent acts which might grow out of the feelings of the moment; and that the people of the United States, in adopting that instrument, have manifested a determination to shield themselves and their property from the effects of those sudden and strong passions to which men are exposed. The restrictions on the legislative power of the states are obviously founded in this sentiment: and the constitution of the United States contains what may be deemed a bill of rights for the people of each state.

No state shall pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts.

A bill of attainder may affect the life of an individual, or may confiscate his property, or may do both.

In this form the power of the legislature over the lives and fortunes of individuals is expressly restrained. What motive, then, for implying, in words which import a general prohibition to impair the obligation of contracts, an exception in favor of the right to impair the obligation of those contracts into which the state may enter?

The state legislatures can pass no ex post facto law. An ex post facto law is one which renders an act punishable in a manner in which it was not punishable when it was committed. Such a law may inflict penalties on the person, or may inflict pecuniary penalties which swell the public treasury. The legislature is then prohibited from passing a law by which a man's estate, or any part of it, shall be seized for a crime which was not declared, by some previous law, to render him liable to that punishment. Why, then, should violence be done to the natural meaning of words for the purpose of leaving to the legislature the power of seizing, for public use, the estate of an individual in the form of a law annulling the title by which he holds that estate? The court can perceive no sufficient grounds for making this distinction. This rescinding act would have the effect of an ex post facto law. It forfeits the estate of Fletcher for a crime not committed by himself, but by those from whom he purchased. This cannot be effected in the form of an ex post facto law, or bill of attainder; why, then, is it allowable in the form of a law annulling the original grant?

The argument in favor of presuming an intention to except a case, not excepted by the words of the constitution, is susceptible of some illustration from a principle originally ingrafted in that instrument, though no longer a part of it. The constitution, as passed, gave the courts of the United States jurisdiction in suits brought against individual states. A state, then, which violated its own contract was suable in the courts of the United States for that violation. Would it have been a defense in such a suit to say that the state had passed a law absolving itself from the contract? It is scarcely to be conceived that such a defense could be set up. And yet, if a state is neither restrained by the general principles of our political institutions, nor by the words of the constitution, from impairing the obligation of its own contracts, such a defense would be a valid one. This feature is no longer found in the constitution; but it aids in the construction of those clauses with which it was originally associated.

It is, then, the unanimous opinion of the court, that, in this case, the estate having passed into the hands of a purchaser for a valuable consideration, without notice, the state of Georgia was restrained, either by general principles, which are common to our free institutions, or by the particular provisions of the constitution of the United States, from passing a law whereby the estate of the plaintiff in the premises so purchased could be constitutionally and legally impaired and rendered null and void.

In overruling the demurrer to the 3d plea, therefore, there is no error.

The first covenant in the deed is, that the state of Georgia, at the time of the act of the legislature thereof, entitled as aforesaid, was legally seized in fee of the soil thereof subject only to the extinguishment of part of the Indian title thereon.

The 4th count assigns, as a breach of this covenant, that the right to the soil was in the United States, and not in Georgia.

To this count the defendant pleads, that the state of Georgia was seized; and tenders an issue on the fact in which the plaintiff joins. On this issue a special verdict is found.

The jury find the grant of Carolina by Charles second to the Earl of Clarendon and others, comprehending the whole country from 36 deg. 30 min. north lat. to 29 deg. north lat., and from the Atlantic to the South Sea.

They find that the northern part of this territory was afterwards erected into a separate colony, and that the most northern part of the 35 deg. of north lat. was the boundary line between North and South Carolina.

That seven of the eight proprietors of the Carolinas surrendered to George second in the year 1729, who appointed a governor of South Carolina.

That, in 1732, George the second granted, to the Lord Viscount Percival and others, seven-eighths of the territory between the Savannah and the Alatamaha, and extending west to the South Sea, and that the remaining eighth part, which was still the property of the heir of Lord Carteret, one of the original grantees of Carolina, was afterwards conveyed to them. This territory was constituted a colony and called Georgia.

That the governor of South Carolina continued to exercise jurisdiction south of Georgia.

That, in 1752, the grantees surrendered to the crown.

That, in 1754, a governor was appointed by the crown, with a commission describing the boundaries of the colony.

That a treaty of peace was concluded between Great Britain and Spain, in 1763, in which the latter ceded to the former Florida, with fort St. Augustine and the bay of Pensacola.

That, in October, 1763, the King of Great Britain issued a proclamation, creating four new colonies, Quebec, East Florida, West Florida, and Grenada; and prescribing the bounds of each, and further declaring that all the lands between the Alatamaha and St. Mary's should be annexed to Georgia. The same proclamation contained a clause reserving, under the dominion and protection of the crown, for the use of the Indians, all the lands on the western waters, and forbidding a settlement on them, or a purchase of them from the Indians. The lands conveyed to the plaintiff lie on the western waters.

That, in November, 1763, a commission was issued to the governor of Georgia, in which the boundaries of that province are described as extending westward to the Mississippi. A commission, describing boundaries of the same extent, was afterwards granted in 1764.

That a war broke out between Great Britain and her colonies, which terminated in a treaty of peace acknowledging them as sovereign and independent states.

That in April, 1787, a convention was entered into between the states of South Carolina and Georgia settling the boundary line between them.

The jury afterwards describe the situation of the lands mentioned in the plaintiff's declaration, in such manner that their lying within the limits of Georgia, as defined in the proclamation of 1763, in the treaty of peace, and in the convention between that state and South Carolina, has not been questioned.

The counsel for the plaintiff rest their argument on a single proposition. They contend that the reservation for the use of the Indians, contained in the proclamation of 1763, excepts the lands on the western waters from the colonies within whose bounds they would otherwise have been, and that they were acquired by the revolutionary war. All acquisitions during the war, it is contended, were made by the joint arms, for the joint benefit of the United States, and not for the benefit of any particular state.

The court does not understand the proclamation as it is understood by the counsel for the plaintiff. The reservation for the use of the Indians appears to be a temporary arrangement suspending, for a time, the settlement of the country reserved, and the powers of the royal governor within the territory reserved, but is not conceived to amount to an alteration of the boundaries of the colony. If the language of the proclamation be, in itself, doubtful, the commissions subsequent thereto, which were given to the governors of Georgia, entirely remove the doubt.

The question, whether the vacant lands within the United States became a joint property, or belonged to the separate states, was a momentous question which, at one time, threatened to shake the American confederacy to its foundation. This important and dangerous contest has been compromised, and the compromise is not now to be disturbed.

It is the opinion of the court, that the particular land stated in the declaration appears, from this special verdict, to lie within the state of Georgia, and that the state of Georgia had power to grant it.

Some difficulty was produced by the language of the covenant, and of the pleadings. It was doubted whether a state can be seized in fee of lands, subject to the Indian title, and whether a decision that they were seized in fee, might not be construed to amount to a decision that their grantee might maintain an ejectment for them, notwithstanding that title.

The majority of the court is of opinion that the nature of the Indian title, which is certainly to be respected by all courts, until it be legitimately extinguished, is not such as to be absolutely repugnant to seizin in fee on the part of the state.

Judgment affirmed with costs.

Johnson, J. In this case I entertain, on two points, an opinion different from that which has been delivered by the court.

I do not hesitate to declare that a state does not possess the power of revoking its own grants. But I do it on a general principle, on the reason and nature of things: a principle which will impose laws even on the Deity.

A contrary opinion can only be maintained upon the ground that no existing legislature can abridge the powers of those which will succeed it. To a certain extent this is certainly correct; but the distinction lies between power and interest, the right of jurisdiction and the right of soil.

The right of jurisdiction is essentially connected to, or rather identified with, the national sovereignty. To part with it is to commit a species of political suicide. In fact, a power to produce its own annihilation is an absurdity in terms. It is a power as utterly incommunicable to a political as to a natural person. But it is not so with the interests or property of a nation. Its possessions nationally are in nowise necessary to its political existence; they are entirely accidental, and may be parted with in every respect similarly to those of the individuals who compose the community. When the legislature have once conveyed their interest or property in any subject to the individual, they have lost all control over it; have nothing to act upon; it has passed from them; is vested in the individual; becomes intimately blended with his existence, as essentially so as the blood that circulates through his system. The government may indeed demand of him the one or the other, not because they are not his, but because whatever is his is his country's.

As to the idea, that the grants of a legislature may be void because the legislature are corrupt, it appears to me to be subject to insuperable difficulties. The acts of the supreme power of a country must be considered pure for the same reason that all sovereign acts must be considered just; because there is no power that can declare them otherwise. The absurdity in this case would have been strikingly perceived, could the party who passed the act of cession have got again into power, and declared themselves pure, and the intermediate legislature corrupt.

The security of a people against the misconduct of their rulers, must lie in the frequent recurrence to first principles, and the imposition of adequate constitutional restrictions. Nor would it be difficult, with the same view, for laws to be framed which would bring the conduct of individuals under the review of adequate tribunals, and make them suffer under the consequences of their own immoral conduct.

I have thrown out these ideas that I may have it distinctly understood that my opinion on this point is not founded on the provision in the constitution of the United States, relative to laws impairing the obligation of contracts. It is much to be regretted that words of less equivocal signification had not been adopted in that article of the constitution. There is reason to believe, from the letters of Publius, which are well known to be entitled to the highest respect, that the object of the convention was to afford a general protection to individual rights against the acts of the state legislatures. Whether the words, "acts impairing the obligation of contracts," can be construed to have the same force as must have been given to the words "obligation and effect of contracts," is the difficulty in my mind.

There can be no solid objection to adopting the technical definition of the word "contract," given by Blackstone. The etymology, the classical signification, and the civil law idea of the word, will all support it. But the difficulty arises on the word "obligation," which certainly imports an existing moral or physical necessity. Now, a grant or conveyance by no means necessarily implies the continuance of an obligation beyond the moment of executing it. It is most generally but the consummation of a contract, is functus officio the moment it is executed, and continues afterwards to be nothing more than the evidence that a certain act was done.

I enter with great hesitation upon this question, because it involves a subject of the greatest delicacy and much difficulty. The states and the United States are continually legislating on the subject of contracts, prescribing the mode of authentication, the time within which suits shall be prosecuted for them, in many cases affecting existing contracts by the laws which they pass, and declaring them to cease or lose their effect for want of compliance, in the parties, with such statutory provisions. All these acts appear to be within the most correct limits of legislative powers, and most beneficially exercised, and certainly could not have been intended to be affected by this constitutional provision; yet where to draw the line, or how to define or limit the words, "obligation of contracts," will be found a subject of extreme difficulty.

To give it the general effect of a restriction of the state powers in favor of private rights, is certainly going very far beyond the obvious and necessary import of the words, and would operate to restrict the states in the exercise of that right which every community must exercise, of possessing itself of the property of the individual, when necessary for public uses; a right which a magnanimous and just government will never exercise without amply indemnifying the individual, and which perhaps amounts to nothing more than a power to oblige him to sell and convey, when the public necessities require it.

Copyright/The Founders' Constitution
Volume 3, Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1, Document 12
The University of Chicago Press



Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-02-2002, 12:07 PM
oldreb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

McCulloch v. Maryland, 1819
This one won't be nearly so long. I won't provide the entire document, but a URL where you can read it yourselves.

In a nutshell,

The first question made in the cause is, has Congress power to incorporate a bank?

2. Whether the State of Maryland may, without violating the constitution, tax that branch?

Let me see if I have this straight...Congress forming a bank, and a state taxing it. Leads me right into secession, boy-o. I guess we can all see that.

Guys, everything that Marshall ruled on while he sat the Supreme Court bench has the word Constitution in it. He also dealt squarely but not intelligently on the term sovereign as it applies to states. He had one agenda. Make the Supreme Court the most powerful branch of the Federal government.

You might was well use his ruling in Dartmouth College v. Woodward as a step to discussing secession. (The points for consideration are:
Is this contract protected by the Constitution of the United States?
Is it impaired by the acts under which the defendant holds?)

See how easily that folds into secession or the right of a state to secede?

My point of view -- minus two points for trying to BS an old BS'er.

Anybody else.

BTW - the URL for the McCulloch v. Maryland ruling is

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/D/1801-1...ases/mar02.htm

if you are interested.

see you boys in court...
oldreb
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-02-2002, 12:56 PM
Private (25+ posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 125
Default

Guys, everything that Marshall ruled on while he sat the Supreme Court bench has the word Constitution in it. He also dealt squarely but not intelligently on the term sovereign as it applies to states. He had one agenda. Make the Supreme Court the most powerful branch of the Federal government.

You are of course welcome to your own opinion on Marshall and his rulings. This does not change the fact that the highest court in the land, the recognized arbiter of Constitutional questions was speaking directly to the notion of state sovereignty that was later used as the lynchpin in Calhoun's arguments justifying nullification and secession:

The sovereignty of a State extends to everything which exists by its own authority, or is so introduced by its permission; but does it extend to those means which are employed by Congress to carry into execution powers conferred on that body by the people of the United States? We think it demonstrable that it does not. Those powers are not given by the people of a single State. They are given by the people of the United States, to a government whose laws, made in pursuance of the constitution, are declared to be supreme. Consequently, the people of a single State cannot confer a sovereignty which will extend over them.

You asked for a Supreme Court decision that dealt with secession. I offer the above which expressly negates the argument that a single state has the power to abrogate an agreement carried into effect by the People of the United States. The last line explicitly states that the people of a single state CANNOT confer a sovereingty which will extend over them; this is done by the People of the United States. The powers of the Federal government that extend over the individual states were not given to the Federal Government by the individual states but rather by the People of the United States. If the people of the individual states did not give this power how can it be argued that they somehow have the power to rescind it?

blackirish
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-02-2002, 01:06 PM
oldreb
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

My friend, we are at loggerheads.
I am as Thomas Jefferson, a believer that the people hold all power not given to the Federal government. I care not a fig what John Marshall ruled regarding state sovereignty as he was a strong Federalist and I do not believe in a strong Federal government. At least to the point where human and states rights are ground under-foot in the name of Constitutionality.

So, let us shake hands on this topic thread, go out and have a cold ale at the tavern, smoke a pipe of good Virginia tobacco grown on plantations where freemen work alongside the owners, and find another arena to stretch out out legs and have a go at each other.

What say you, friend McLeroy?

my very best
Ron
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-02-2002, 01:23 PM
Private (25+ posts)
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 125
Default

I have the greatest respect for your right to disagree with Marshall and his opinions expressed in these rulings and will proudly assert your right to loudly proclaim your dissatisfaction; but that doesn't make them any less legally binding as to their Constitutionality.
Just point me in the general direction of the aforementioned tavern and I'll meet you there as long as I don't have to go too far north to do so. <grin> The first round is on me.

highest regards,
blackirish
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-28-2006, 11:41 AM
Sergeant (500+ posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
I have seen this used in a number of threads regarding the consitutionality of Secession.

I do not find this to be a hearing on the legality of Secession as it is post-facto.

Old Reb
Texas V White is indeed used a lot, usually by those without an understanding of law.

Texas V White settles nothing at all on the question of secesion, the question of secesion was not argued or brought suit on, therfore no legal precedednt is set as the corum non judice statemts regarding it are meerly opionion without legal weight.

Texas V White cannot be used as legal precedent, and never has been by the Courts for that simple reason, that and that aspect of the case was overturned on appeal in any event so double no joy there.


The Judiciary Act had never granted to the Courts the authority to rule on the Sov of states in the Union, and thats another reason no court has made a rulling on it, meerly expressed Judicial opinion without standing in law, mostly that states are Sov and have delegated aspects of thet Sov to the Federal government to use on their behalf.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-29-2006, 04:50 AM
Sergeant (500+ posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
I have seen this used in a number of threads regarding the consitutionality of Secession.
I do not find this to be a hearing on the legality of Secession as it is post-facto.
Ex post facto laws are unconstitional and also aplying a post war rulling has no bearing you mean, correct on both counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
Find me a source that discusses secession pre-1861, that the United States Supreme Court heard and ruled on in toto and we can discuss.
No one can provide that for you, the USCC is limited by the Judiciary Act as to what it can rule on, it cannot now or then rule on the Sov status of a State as that authority has never been granted to it to do so.
There are many refernces to the revailing cicamstances as the Judge understands the matter, he may make orbiter Dicta or corum non Judice, that is, remaks bye the way to expalin how he consiers the issue, but without legal wieght, but still good pointers non the less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
For those who are not comfortable with this case, let me put it in a nutshell...
TEXAS V. WHITE. Texas v. White, a suit of the state of Texas against George W. White, John Chiles, and others, was filed in the United States Supreme Court on February 15, 1867, during the administration of A. J. Hamilton,ad interim Reconstruction governor of Texas, and sought an injunction to restrain the defendants from using Texas Indemnity Bonds paid to them by Texas after secessionqv for supplies for the Confederate States of America and to obtain the restoration of fifty-one of the bonds. The case was argued by George W. Paschalqv and R. T. Merrick for the state and Philip Philips, Albert Pike, J. W. Carlisle, and J. W. Moore for the defense.
The most historically significant question involved was whether or not Texas, having seceded and not having completed Reconstruction, had status in the Union and therefore the right to sue in the United States Supreme Court.

Ill stop you right there, that matter (secesssion) was not before the court as part of the suit, nor argued on during the trial by anyone, and therfore any reference to it is corum non judice, ie a Judicial opinion without authrative meaning or weight or consideration, this had already been established by Mississippi V Johnstone where Chase declined to here a suit of State aginst the presidents use of Reconstruction Acts against it, this Acts are not courts under the purvue or jurisdiction of the USSC and thus dismissed through lack of juridiction, Georgia v Stanton tried to the same aginst the Sec Of war for enacting the Reconstruction Acts and was told agin the USSC had no jurisdiction on these Acts, then the mil Gov of Texas brough suit, he draws his posistion by presidintial apointment ie he has no constitioanl oversight or grant of powers, and is outside the USSC to appeal against, and is simply the next man in the chain of command from Presed, to Sec of war to Mil Commander of a State, that means the man was not goverend by or restrained by the USSC or Congress or the Constition, and the USSC had already declined it had any authority to hear on this, quite why anyone would think Chase then hearing it without an appeal winning hands dow is a bit of a puzzle, secondly to that only matters before the court can pass into precedent, since secesion was not part of the suit, Texas v White has never been viewed by the USSC as haveing made legal precedent, not only because its on a mater not before the court and therfore non precedential making, but that part of the suit was overturned on appeal because of a writ of error of jurisdiction, the court provided its own means in making the rulling to provide an iron cast appeal to dismiss its own ruleing. Its worth noteing that Chase cites nothing from the Constition, but uses the articles of Confederation pretty strong arguments he was able to find.....secesion cannot occur because the AOC say so!!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackirish
If there still remained further doubt in anyone's mind let me refer you to the following opinion of the court in 79 US 457 Knox v. Lee and Parker v. Davis in 1870:
Furthermore; the Supreme Court again addressed the question in Hanauer v. Woodruff in 1872;
From the opinion of the court:
As you can see; The Supreme Court has ruled on the question of secession repeatedly and in each case concurred that the attempt by the southern states to secede was ILLEGAL under the Constitution.
There is no doubt at all, just look at the Judicary Act, the Sov status of a state is not withing its jurisdiction, as that is a political qustion of which they can take no note.
Now what i do see is a lot of orbiter Dictum, which is all the Courts have ever given, no court ever has or can rule on secesion. I see dates of 1870 and 1872 on cases, what the court though at that at time is of note, as is Ware v Hylton 1798 S Chase signer of the DOI and then USSC Judge.
In June 1776 the convention of Va formally declared that VA was free and an independednt State and on the 4th July following the United states in Congress assembled declared that the 13 United Colonies were fre, independednt states, and as such had full power to levy war, conclude peace etc. I Consider this declaration not that the United states jointly collectivly capacity were independednt Statesetc, but that each of them was Soveriegn and independednt states, and that each of them had the right govern itself of its own authority and its own law without any control from any power on earth."
Cherekee nation v Georgia USSC 1831 S Johston, Worcester v Georgia 1831 J Marshall, both cases recongised the individual tribes of the Cherkee nation and other tribes in Confedrations, as seperate Sovriegntys, "because they were distinct and independent pollitical communities which goverened themselves by their own laws and customs while being part of a larger political Union called the Cherekee Nation".
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/cases/name.htm list landmark cases and how the USSC uses them for guidence on rullings, heres how its applied, note, it contains no mention of secesion, for the good and simple reason that the case is not concerned with it.
]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-29-2006, 04:52 AM
Sergeant (500+ posts)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
I have seen this used in a number of threads regarding the consitutionality of Secession.
I do not find this to be a hearing on the legality of Secession as it is post-facto.
Ex post facto laws are unconstitional and also aplying a post war rulling has no bearing you mean, correct on both counts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
Find me a source that discusses secession pre-1861, that the United States Supreme Court heard and ruled on in toto and we can discuss.
No one can provide that for you, the USCC is limited by the Judiciary Act as to what it can rule on, it cannot now or then rule on the Sov status of a State as that authority has never been granted to it to do so.
There are many refernces to the revailing cicamstances as the Judge understands the matter, he may make orbiter Dicta or corum non Judice, that is, remaks bye the way to expalin how he consiers the issue, but without legal wieght, but still good pointers non the less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldreb
For those who are not comfortable with this case, let me put it in a nutshell...
TEXAS V. WHITE. Texas v. White, a suit of the state of Texas against George W. White, John Chiles, and others, was filed in the United States Supreme Court on February 15, 1867, during the administration of A. J. Hamilton,ad interim Reconstruction governor of Texas, and sought an injunction to restrain the defendants from using Texas Indemnity Bonds paid to them by Texas after secessionqv for supplies for the Confederate States of America and to obtain the restoration of fifty-one of the bonds. The case was argued by George W. Paschalqv and R. T. Merrick for the state and Philip Philips, Albert Pike, J. W. Carlisle, and J. W. Moore for the defense.
The most historically significant question involved was whether or not Texas, having seceded and not having completed Reconstruction, had status in the Union and therefore the right to sue in the United States Supreme Court.

Ill stop you right there, that matter (secesssion) was not before the court as part of the suit, nor argued on during the trial by anyone, and therfore any reference to it is corum non judice, ie a Judicial opinion without authrative meaning or weight or consideration, this had already been established by Mississippi V Johnstone where Chase declined to here a suit of State aginst the presidents use of Reconstruction Acts against it, this Acts are not courts under the purvue or jurisdiction of the USSC and thus dismissed through lack of juridiction, Georgia v Stanton tried to the same aginst the Sec Of war for enacting the Reconstruction Acts and was told agin the USSC had no jurisdiction on these Acts, then the mil Gov of Texas brough suit, he draws his posistion by presidintial apointment ie he has no constitioanl oversight or grant of powers, and is outside the USSC to appeal against, and is simply the next man in the chain of command from Presed, to Sec of war to Mil Commander of a State, that means the man was not goverend by or restrained by the USSC or Congress or the Constition, and the USSC had already declined it had any authority to hear on this, quite why anyone would think Chase then hearing it without an appeal winning hands dow is a bit of a puzzle, secondly to that only matters before the court can pass into precedent, since secesion was not part of the suit, Texas v White has never been viewed by the USSC as haveing made legal precedent, not only because its on a mater not before the court and therfore non precedential making, but that part of the suit was overturned on appeal because of a writ of error of jurisdiction, the court provided its own means in making the rulling to provide an iron cast appeal to dismiss its own ruleing. Its worth noteing that Chase cites nothing from the Constition, but uses the articles of Confederation pretty strong arguments he was able to find.....secesion cannot occur because the AOC say so!!.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackirish
If there still remained further doubt in anyone's mind let me refer you to the following opinion of the court in 79 US 457 Knox v. Lee and Parker v. Davis in 1870:
Furthermore; the Supreme Court again addressed the question in Hanauer v. Woodruff in 1872;
From the opinion of the court:
As you can see; The Supreme Court has ruled on the question of secession repeatedly and in each case concurred that the attempt by the southern states to secede was ILLEGAL under the Constitution.
There is no doubt at all, just look at the Judicary Act, the Sov status of a state is not withing its jurisdiction, as that is a political qustion of which they can take no note.
Now what i do see is a lot of orbiter Dictum, which is all the Courts have ever given, no court ever has or can rule on secesion. I see dates of 1870 and 1872 on cases, what the court though at that at time is of note, as is Ware v Hylton 1798 S Chase signer of the DOI and then USSC Judge.
In June 1776 the convention of Va formally declared that VA was free and an independednt State and on the 4th July following the United states in Congress assembled declared that the 13 United Colonies were fre, independednt states, and as such had full power to levy war, conclude peace etc. I Consider this declaration not that the United states jointly collectivly capacity were independednt Statesetc, but that each of them was Soveriegn and independednt states, and that each of them had the right govern itself of its own authority and its own law without any control from any power on earth."
Cherekee nation v Georgia USSC 1831 S Johston, Worcester v Georgia 1831 J Marshall, both cases recongised the individual tribes of the Cherkee nation and other tribes in Confedrations, as seperate Sovriegntys, "because they were distinct and independent pollitical communities which goverened themselves by their own laws and customs while being part of a larger political Union called the Cherekee Nation".
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/cases/name.htm list landmark cases and how the USSC uses them for guidence on rullings, heres how its applied, note, it contains no mention of secesion, for the good and simple reason that the case is not concerned with it.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-29-2006, 07:17 AM
First Sergeant (1000+ posts)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,012
Default Reality

oldreb, under certain conditions, the U.S. government has the right to punch out your lights.

74 U.S. 700
Texas v White

"Considered as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention, and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The State did not cease to be a state, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union."

oldreb, you understand the punch out lights part?

Last edited by whitworth; 07-29-2006 at 07:19 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Back to top
Bringing the American Civil War to Life. Copyright © 1999 - 2008, CivilWarTalk.com. Site Version 4.3
The American Civil War | Forum | Resource Center | Image Gallery | Links | Site Map | XML | Donations