Suspension of Civil Liberties

[unionblue]

Tommy,

Of course you realize that you are glossing over the breakdown of that 13,000 do you not? That many were deserters, trading with the enemy, etc.?

As for Seward being in charge of the secret police, what secret police?

"William H. Seward, the secretary of state, was in charge of military arrests until February 1862, when control was transferred to the War Department. He reputedly told the British ambassador that he had more power than the British monarch and could order the arrest of a citizen anywhere in the country by ringing a little bell on his desk. But under Seward's supervision, the government arrested fewer than nine hundred civilians, a small percentage of the wartime total. Seward was busy with other pressing matters like keeping England out of the war. He also lacked any administrative apparatus for making these arrests. Besides, most disloyal Americans were out of the government's reach at that time. Of those who were arrested, many were in effect enemy aliens--residents of the Confederacy. Only around a hundred of the prisoners lived above the border states in uncontested Union territory."

"The eventual number of arrests was in the thousands. After Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton suspended the writ of habeas corpus in August 1862, apparently under Lincoln's direction, the ensuing arrests were undertaken by petty officials under weak central control. But it was in the South, as the Union began to regain territory, or in the contested portions of border states such as Missouri, that military arrests were most rampant. The number of prisoners who can be identified as Northern (non-border state) residents ran in the hundreds, though they were still a small percentage of the total. Most were probably suspected draft evaders or deserters."

Lincoln's Constitution, Chapter 7, page 157.

Unionblue

Neil,

Where is the proof you have it was not 38,000? You question the 38,000? You say you never seen proof to satisfy you. But you only are using very pro Lincoln writings as your evidence. Heck even the Title of the book you use is petitio principii.

As to the secret police....the National Counterintelligence Center says both Pinkerton and Baker headed up just such a group. Granted they did not run around with badges saying "Secret Police"...in fact under Lincoln, They did not need no stinkin badges...lol. But I never knew Seward turned over his spy network i.e. the Secret Service to the War department.

But in the end, your belief of the numbers, will be just as valid as any number.. Since they never bothered to give them due process we cannot know the numbers can we?

[unionblue]

Tommy,

I do question the 38,000 and yes I am using supposedly pro Lincoln writings, although I do not view the book, The Fate of Liberty: Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties as a pro-Lincoln book. I have the book at home and the author was very precise and detailed when going through the records of the time.

It is the fact the numbers have come out lower than some keep quoting, in spite of new evidence, that gets a bit on my nerves. The site Thea listed that started this little back and forth tonight is my point. The author there just keeps passing on the same number he has seen from other pro-Southern sites and writings because it makes a better case for the evil Lincoln and his 'dictatorship' during the war. It's his choice and he's made it, but he hasn't proved that 'both sides lost' in the war. It is just what he believes. In my opinion.

Check out the reenactor section in the Poke Sack you started. I think you'll get a kick out of it tonight.

Unionblue

[thea_447]

"This is a notion that goes back to Jefferson's
admiration for "that government which governs least." Ah, Neil, that is precisely the difference between the way you and I feel. Those Lincoln couldn't suppress he merely imprisoned. If that is not a dictatorship, I'm sure you will tell me a fancier word for it. But censorship and dictatorship to achieve his goals apparently are some of his least admirable qualities that you think make him a great man.

..."The modern Justice Department did not exist"...again, you're correct. The CSA was the first to incorporate a Justice Department.

"Food for thought,
Unionblue"......Thea pauses and grabs a Prevacid.

"And I guess the entire government of Maryland, elected officials all were not political prisoners?".... No, of course not Tommy. They merely "thought" differently from the ethically-challenged Mr. Lincoln and had to be suppressed.

"Of those who were arrested, many were in effect enemy
aliens--residents of the Confederacy"....Neil! Now you have admitted it! These people were citizens of a DIFFERENT country, the Confederate States of America. Gotcha! You have just opened an old can of worms here. You cannot have it both ways. I think you've read so much of ol' Abe's double-speak that it's finally rattled your brain.

Now I'll go have myself a big ol' "Orange Draaaank", as Andy Griffith would say. I did try putting lemon in Diet Seven Up the other day, but then I remembered in my youth the drink of choice was either Cherry Coke or Lemon Coke. I always opt for lemon over sweetness. (Can you tell?) And I too don't indulge in strong drink. Not only do I have to keep my wits about me to keep up with you guys but it doesn't agree with me or methotrexate.

Tommy, I am SO glad that you've returned to the boards and I sincerely hope you are feeling better. And what is this business about the lymph nodes and bad reactions? I'm not trying to pry, I'm just very concerned.

Neil and Bill, I saw a diet designed for gout sufferers while waiting in a doctor's office the other day and thought of the two of you!

I've decided not to die from my ailments, I'm having entirely too much fun on these boards and as long as I can get a sincere compliment from Neil (I loved the Lil' Reb-Baiter bit) I'll hang around. I'm just not up to sitting for long periods of time but I write in spurts, so please bear with me. My blood levels aren't where they're supposed to be and I've lost my eyebrows but that only makes me pull my kepi down lower. It gives me that ferocious look I was going for anyway! <grin>

Tommy, I'm in the process of buying an Inversion Table. Have you tried that for back relief? One of my doctors suggested it. Plus, I think if the blood flows to my head while I'm upside down I might actually think of a few more barbs to toss out to those pesky bluecoats. I just don't know if I'll be able to READ upside down! (Tsk, tsk, Neil, I know you're thinking of some smart-aleck remark right about now!)

Got to run my newest kitten, Thomas John (guess who he's named for!) to the vet now.
Catchya later my friends!

YMOS,

Thea,
It is ok, feel free to pry all you want. Yet it is not needed. I am pretty much an open book to people who ask. The business with lymph nodes is a bit of a long story but told short it is like this. Since I was young I have had them swell for no known reason. Really swell big. To point of bruising. I once thought was the Black Plague lol. Anyway, they have surgically removed some on three other occasions. Afterwards I'd get blood posioning so bad I'd have to be hospitalised. I have a terribly weak immune system. All of the above has been a complete mystery to the medical community. They have swollen again and they did biopsies to test them for lymphoma again. Just a precaution. Since it has happened before I am not overly concerned. Just my body snafu.

I have never tried an inversion table. I considered gravity boots once though. I was be scared I'd not be able to get out of them lol. I have to start PT soon and I am dreading it lol...

Hope that was the info you was seeking....I hope you know we will always bear with you Thea. I would be lost here without you. I figure you do all the work. I just am holding your coat.

YMOS
tommy

I have not been able to find an Orange Crush in years....

[unionblue]

Thea, Thea, THEA!

I do hope you realize that in your zeal to find me in a quote that gives you the impression that by some leap of faith or evil magic, that, I myself have admitted to the idea that the Confederacy was a legitimate country, that somehow, I have secretly held in my breast the unbidden truth that the Confederacy was a nation. NOT!

As I love and care deeply for you, I would not have you believe this vile rumor for fear that you might go running out of your home and screaming 'Hoorah! The battle is won!' and then trip over a hard fact and hurt something.

Please scroll back up to my post dated November 14, 2003 - 02:15 am. Please inspect the fonts and writing style contained within my posting and you will fine, hopefully, not too much to your dismay, that I am quoting the author of the book, Lincoln's Constitution, Mr. Daniel Farber. The terms I would have used in the place of his, "citizens of the Confederacy," would have been more like, residents of the country in rebellion," or just plain rebels.

The point I was making was that most of the arrests, the 38,000 commented upon as political in nature, was suspect and more than likely inflated to make Lincoln look even worse in your eyes and others who believe like you (if that's at all possible!).

Thea, I will never knowingly lie to you, deceive you, or give up one inch of debating ground to you, without telling you. I think you know me well enough and how I stand on the idea that the Confederacy was never a nation and never formally recognized by any nation on the face of the earth during that time. Now, close yours eyes, click your heels together three times and say, "There is no place like home, or the nation of the Confederacy" and wake up.

As for the fact you speak Thomas Jefferson's words "that government which governs least", please refer to my post above dated November 14, 2003 - 01:34 am and read the phrase there and know it is by Jefferson himself. With that same phrase by the man it seems as though he was anticipating Lincoln's actions in the coming war and agreeing with them. But, I guess it's how you take them, not just read them.

As for Tommy's observation that my quotes from the book, "Lincoln's Constitution" is suspect as a source because it carries a title with Lincoln's name, I find that somewhat amusing. (Tommy, if I read that wrong, I'm sorry.) The author of the book is simply stating he is making observations on the Constitution Lincoln had to deal with at the time and were they legal or illegal acts by using prior Supreme Court rulings before the Civil War.

And now Tommy asks how do I know that there were NOT 38,000 political prisoners arrested during the Civil War. Again, I fall back on the book, "The Fate of Liberty: Lincoln and Civil Liberties," by Neely who was trying to establish the exact number of political arrests and come up with the conclusions I presented above.

Thea, as for your other observations that the South 'created' a Justice Department, that only reinforces the idea, for me anyway, that the South did not want to be taken advantage of as it took advantage of the North when it had a weak central government and law enforcement establishment.

As for all of Lincoln's supposed 'suppression' why was he constantly attacked in the newspapers, challenged by his party, criticized by his generals and always wrangling with his cabinet? I know of the newspapers he withdrew post office mailings from, and I know some of those advocated draft resistance and breaking the law. Even with these examples, there were still plenty of newspapers that did not favor him and constantly called for his removal, a separate peace with the rebels, etc. If he were anywhere near the dictator you claim he is, he would have been a bit more 'despotic,' don't you think?

I am glad that you are feeling better, as I know Tommy is, as he was feeling a bit lonely here at times with all the artillery being fired at his fox hole. But as for his claim that all he does is 'hold your coat' I wish you two would stop trying to sell me swamp land in TN or FL or wherever it is you are trying to snow me!

Thanks for thinking of us during your doctor visit, but thank God, the gout is not a problem right now. Now, my blood pressure might be an issue with all these silly claims of my recognizing the Confederacy, but I am sure I have that back under control.

YMOS,
Unionblue

[unionblue]

Friends,

Its been a long time since this particular thread has seen any action, so I thought I would add some fuel to its dying embers.

Most of the above posts deal with the suspension of civil liberties during the Civil War. Very little is said about the South and its actions it took against those who opposed their goals of secession. I give you the following lifted from the magazine Civil War Times, October 2002, reviews of book section.

"The popularity of the bumper sticker that proclaims, 'Lee Surrendered, I Didn't,' makes it tempting to conclude that white Southerners have always been united against 'the War of Northern Aggression.' But popular culture says more about contemporary society than it does about the past. During the war most Confederates displayed an impressive degree of devotion to the cause, but beneath the facade of unity there were plenty of dissenters. As a Virginia Unionist, David Hunter Strother was a sensitive commentator on the struggles of Southerners, black and white, who defied Confederate authority. Strother recorded his observations in a diary that has been published by the University of North Carolina as <u>A Virginia Yankee in the Civil War.</u>

For most of his military service, Strother was a Union staff officer in his native Shenandoah Valley. An artist and writer, he had won fame before Fort Sumter with humorous articles in <u>Harper's Monthly,</u> published under the name 'Porte Crayon' (Carries-Pencil'). The brutal dislocations of war, however, gave him few opportunities to display his wit. Most of his journal writings describe grinding hardships inflicted on civilians, particularly slaves and free blacks, whose every move received intense white scrutiny. Blacks did not passively wait for freedom, according to Strother, but ran away from their masters whenever a Union army was in reach. Strother rightfully saw this as a powerful act against the Confederacy, and realized that such resistance required slaves to wear many deceptive masks. Whites 'seem to believe firmly that their Negroes are so much attached to them that they will not leave them on any terms,' he wrote in 1864, but he found that 'the Negroes take the first opportunity they find of running into our lines and giving information as to where their masters are hidden.'

Strother was horrified by Confederate persecution of white Unionists in the Shenandoah Valley. Passing through Winchester in 1862, he met a Union man who told 'doeful stories' of injustices inflicted upon him. Strother found this to be the plight of all Virginia Unionists. 'Every man,' he scribbled in his diary, 'that dared open his mouth to remonstrate or talk Union was threatened with death or captivity.'

The repressive measures used against Southern Unionists and slaves made it easier for Strother to endorse a policy of hard war against the Confederacy, even though he lamented the destruction of civilian property. So it was that on June 12, 1864, when Major General David Hunter asked Strother what should be done with the Virginia Military Institute, he grimly told his superior to burn it to the ground."

Review by Peter S. Carmichael
University of North Carolina at Greensboro.

There seems to be a very real suppression of civil liberties in the South during the war, but yet it receives very little attention, much less than the inflated numbers given by those who wish to accuse the North of the same violations.

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on April 10, 2004)

[unionblue]

Friends,

An interesting site that has a bearing on our thread here. What do you make of it?

http://www.ajr.org/article_printable.asp?id=2621

YMOS,
Unionblue

[cash]

The confederacy had a direct tax on real estate, slaves, and other property. [James G. Randall and David H. Donald, _The Civil War and Reconstruction,_ p. 257] They also passed a modest income tax of their own in April of 1863 [Ibid.].

In Richmond, Gen John H. Winder was given command of the city and issued general orders which forbade the sale of liquor and required all citizens to surrender their firearms to the confederate ordnance department. Winder put into operation a passport system to control entry and exit for Richmond. They forced railroad companies and hotels to submit lists of passengers and guests on a daily basis to the central government. In the first two weeks, his political police made 30 arbitrary arrests, including John Minor Botts, a sixty-year-old former two-term congressman. He was confined for two months and was released only after he promised to live outside any city and to say nothing against the confederacy. How's that for free speech? Say one word against the confederacy and it's back in prison for you. Winder fixed prices in Richmond, publishing a list of maximum prices and confiscating anything whose price exceeded that maximum. They impressed cotton from farmers and the central government ran all foreign commerce. In March of 1863 the confederate congress passed the Act to Regulate Impressments, which formalized the practice of impressing food and forage from southern farmers, establishing what the government considered fair prices the farmers would eventually be paid for the goods taken from them. The confederate government instituted a graduated income tax on April 24, 1863 and also, on the same day, provided for a tax in kind on produce. This meant that farmers were required to tithe 10 percent of their harvests to the government. They sent their thugs to the farms to enforce the tithing. The confederate government was state socialism run amok as the government owned and operated all sorts of businesses such as clothing factories, shoe factories, mines, ordnance plants, powder works, and other industries. According to Emory Thomas, the confederate government had more bureaucrats working for it than the US government had working for it. Davis was denounced by his own vice president, Alexander Stephens, as a military despot. [Source: Emory M. Thomas, _The Confederacy as a Revolutionary Experience,_ University of South Carolina Press, 1971] They even impressed copper coils from stills in the North Carolina mountains.

Regards,
Cash

[unionblue]

Cash,

Found some more information concerning the South suppressing debate and freedom of the press at the following site. The site is entitled, "Class, the 19th Century, &amp; Free Expression.'

http://www.utc.edu/Academic/Communic...97rushing.html

Makes for some interesting reading and conclusions over what was considered an open and closed society before the war took place.

I also am listing some other sites on lincoln and his war time actions that may be of intrest.

http://cpcug.org/user/billb/lincoln.html

http://www.raleightavern.org/lincoln.htm

And this last site is one dealing with an overall evaluation by the ama on Lincoln which made great reading.

http://www.lincolnportrait.com/ama.htm

Hope it adds fuel to the fire.

YMOS,
Unionblue

(Message edited by Unionblue on April 14, 2004)