Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
When my ancestors arrived in America they were brought over on ships because droves were coming (legally) to colonize this land. True, we ALL are guilty as hell of wiping out the Indians along the way, but as far as being illegal, I doubt that. (And if ANYBODY in this country is owed reparations, Indians should be a the TOP of the list!)
And those early settlers didn't have the benefit of welfare, social security, or just producing a baby on American soil as a right to drain money from the average working person.
I'm sorry but that old verse "Give me your tired, your poor, your teeming masses" doesn't do a thing for me anymore.
__________________ Thea
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
Guess it depends on if your standing on the shore looking at all those boats coming in or if you're on the deck of the ship looking at the shore. Your point of view is where you are standing at that time.
Sincerely,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
You will all be glad to know that I finally have a copy of the book, The Strange Career Of Jim Crow, and have just started reading it. When I finish I will be glad to express my views on the subject.
I also have the book, Without Consent Or Contract; The Rise And Fall Of American Slavery, by Robert William Fogel. Lots of stats and numbers in this one concerning slavery and such.
Talk at you all soon,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
No one has permission to use any material from any of my posts on any CWT forum, the archives, or any other forum without my express written permission.
No, it is not a good place to put the above link as it is slanted, from one point-of-view with a site agenda and repeats much of what we have argued before on other threads. Other than that, the stats the man gives in his article are suspect and repeats from other skewed articles in his own skewed environment.
But please consider that this reply is from one who has his own, skewed point-of-view, taking from memory the fact that the 38,000 people imprisoned by the North for treason is suspect and unconfirmed by written record (maybe) and constantly repeats the same message, over and over again, that the whole thing was about the South leaving the Union (illegally) over the issue of slavery.
Doing OK by-the-way? How did the medical thing go?
YMOS,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Depends what sources you read. But I never found any that listed it under 12,000 political prisoners held without charges etc. Many literally worked to death. The political prisoners in Alcatraz were put to work building roads, busting rocks etc.
If you are interested in the topic I know of at least two books ... ...the war time book Prisoner of State, by Dennis A. Mahony or the much more recent one “Lincoln, The Road to War” by Frank Van Der Linden.
Resolved, That the President be requested to inform this house, if, in his opinion, not inconsistent with the public interest, whether in any oath of allegiance or parole required to be taken by any persons held in custody as a so-called political prisoner, there has been inserted a clause to the effect that he should not bring suit for the recovery of damages for such imprisonment or that he should not oppose, by speech or otherwise, the war measures of the administration.
Just love the way they tacked on the Oath not to sue clause.
Some words on the subject and then I promise to get back with some more facts on the numbers we talked about above.
"...(a) strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. ...(Rather) laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. For to lose our country by scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."
YMOS,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
"Individual rights were undoubtedly curtailed during the Civil War. Having said that, the exact extent of the intrusions on individual rights is hard to determine. According to the best recent estimates, at least thirteen thousand civilians were held under military arrest during the course of the war. Most of these arrests involved suspected deserters or draft dodgers, citizens of the Confederacy, possible blockade runners, or individuals trading with the enemy. Some were arrested purely for disloyal speech. Some arrestees, such as deserters and possibly draft evaders, were properly under military jurisdiction."
The above is taken from the book, Lincoln's Constitution, by Daniel Farber, Chapter 7, titled Individual Rights. Farber lists as his source for the number of 13,000 civilians as the best recent estimate the book, The Fate of Liberty: Abraham Lincoln and Civil Liberties (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1991. Neely, who exhaustively researched the original records, contends that traditional estimates undercounted the total number of prisoners but greatly overestimated the number of true political prisoners.
A bit more from Farber's book:
"The various intrusions on civil liberties might appear to be signs of incipient dictatorship. We are conditioned to think that strong governments are a threat to civil liberties, whereas weak governments promote liberty. This is a notion that goes back to Jefferson's admiration for "that government which governs least." In context of the Civil War, the most widespread deviation from normal legal procedures--military trials--did not result from the government being too strong and centralized, but from its being too weak and decentralized. Military arrests and trials were required by the pathetic state of the federal government's legal apparatus. The only civilian federal law enforcement officers were a scattering of U.S. marshals. In the entire country, there were only seventy federal judges, and eighty-one federal attorneys, marshals, and other court officers. The modern Justice Department did not exist, nor did the FBI. The attorney general was not even a full-time federal employee, and his staff was minimal. And if the federal government had not appeared to be such an easy target, secession might never have happened in the first place.
Lincoln was in no position to act as a dictator even if he had wanted to. He had to struggle to maintain control of his cabinet and stave off challenges by his own party in Congress. Often, he was reduced to playing the role of arbitrator between cabinet members or generals. He had a minimal staff. As a result, he was forced to leave subordinates with broad discretion. Instead of systematic supervision, he had to rely on personal review of individual cases if and when they crossed his desk."
Food for thought,
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Last edited by unionblue : 05-03-2008 at 12:00 AM.
Oh well if it was only 13,000 political prisoners I guess it is ok. And I just loved the way he handle Maryland's elections. And I guess the entire government of Maryland, elected officials all were not political prisoners?
Besides...Seward was the one requested to be in charge of the secret police wasn't he?
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Linear Mode
