Civil War History - Secession and PoliticsWas it Slavery, or was it States Rights? Perhaps it was the election of Lincoln? What were the real reasons for Southern Secession and what were the political issues in this time of war? Find your answers here in the Secession and Politics Disussion.
Thanks for providing the full reference. It looks to be a political broadside published as a political tactic rather than objective reporting of events. Using this to define Helper or his book is rather like using Ted Kennedy or Tip O'Neil to define Ronald Reagan and his policies.
I was under the impression before that you were quoting what the folks who edit the site itself were saying about the book, rather than a political broadside appearing on the site.
So by your logic, if a political party endorsed Mein Kampf it would not be what the party stood for since they did not pen it? They merely endorsed it and paid to have it distributed free but that would mean nothing? How am I misrepresenting Anything? Is it your contention they did not endorse it?
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You said the "we" referred to the Republicans who endorsed the book. That is a complete misrepresentation. Helper wrote that before any Republicans even thought of endorsing the book, so it can hardly mean them.
_Mein Kampf_ was about fascism. A party endorsing _Mein Kampf_ would be endorsing fascism. _The Impending Crisis_ was about how slavery should be abolished. Endorsing this book was endorsing abolishing slavery.
_Mein Kampf_ was about fascism. A party endorsing _Mein Kampf_ would be endorsing fascism. _The Impending Crisis_ was about how slavery should be abolished. Endorsing this book was endorsing abolishing slavery.
Helper was as much a racist as Hilter had ever dreamed of being. And he was just as vitrolic and hate filled. And yes, a facist as well. His plan to abolish slavery were the epitome of fascism. Full stop.
Thanks for providing the full reference. It looks to be a political broadside published as a political tactic rather than objective reporting of events. Using this to define Helper or his book is rather like using Ted Kennedy or Tip O'Neil to define Ronald Reagan and his policies.
Nice analogy but one totally lacking in merit. Nothing in the ephemera was untrue and cannot be corroborated if you so desire. I have. The lists are true. The funding is true. The contents pointed out in the book are true and it is true the Republican party endorsed the book and paid to have it published and distrubuted freely. I defy you to prove otherwise.
And I told it it was on American Memory website. See? I did not lie, missremember. manufacter or misrepresent the info. When I say a source I mean it. When I reinterate I have checked the source it is because I have done just what I said. I checked it. You could have found it simply by going there and typing in Hinton Helper. I did.
Ladies, and Gentlemen,
I have read, and reread in some instanceces, most of your responces to each other, and the bottom line seems to be.....That we see what we want to see, and we read what we want to read, and we, pretty much understand these things a tad differently from each other. I read these responses and those who wrote them, and I see that I have much to learn, and that much of my education about that great unpleasantness, comes from stories from my ancestors, and readings from various books, internet pieces, and my own digging into some state and county histories. I wish I could count myself, among those of you who so eloquently put into words, those quotations you so abeley put down on this board, as well read and intellectualy intelligent, as you are. However, I don't believe I am. I may have some knowledge that a lot of you do not, but my knowledge lies in what happened within a few states, Virginia included, and certain individuals that fought in that conflict. Of the deep seated reasons for the beginnings of the War for Southern Independence, I have a fair amount of knowledge, but not nearly the amount that y'all seem to show hereon. I do respect the amount of study, research, and analysis that goes into each and every answer I read from you remarkable people. I read simply, and sometimes rather shallowly at that, and my interpretation of certain events, truly differ from some of you. However, I see differences that, no matter how much the articles seem to 'prove' a point, the interpretations thereof, still seem very different among you, or us, as the case may be. Will there ever be a concrete piece of evidence, that can, or will be, interpreted to the satisfaction of all concerned? I rather doubt it. Perhaps it that very thing, that keeps us coming back for more. Perhaps it is that very thing that drove that wedge between our sections in the beginning. We all seem to see every one of those bits and large pieces of information and even the Constitution itself, just a little differently from our neighbors. I find these posts very interesting, to say the least, and even though I sometimes contribute to them, I have to give way to a few of you who seem to put down on this board, those deep and abiding answers that I seem to fail to do. I suppose I could reach into the depths of some of those books, web sites and other sources, but it just seems as if the patience to do so sometimes, seems to leave me at the most inapropreate times. Bottom line?.......Our differences probably will never be adequately resolved to our satisfaction, and as I stated earlier, maybe it is just that, that keeps us coming back to this board to 'debate' this defining piece of history. To those of you who contribuite to this board on a continuing basis, may I salute you for the outstanding job you do in conveying your ideas and perceptions to the rest of us, and I only hope that what little I put forth, may add just a smite, to your interest in our War for Southern Independence.
Helper was as much a racist as Hilter had ever dreamed of being. And he was just as vitrolic and hate filled. And yes, a facist as well. His plan to abolish slavery were the epitome of fascism. Full stop.
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Helper's book was about ending slavery. That's why Republicans endorsed it. Someone endorsing Hitler's book would be endorsing what it is about--fascism. There is a big difference.
Fascism involves an oppressive, dictatorial control of a nation. Helper's plan to abolish slavery was in no way the epitome of fascism.
Nice analogy but one totally lacking in merit.
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On the contrary, it fits exactly.
Nothing in the ephemera was untrue and cannot be corroborated if you so desire. I have.
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As I've already shown, " Against slaveholders, as a body, we (that is, the Republican signers and endorsers) wage an EXTERMINATING WAR.--Page 120." is a complete misrepresentation. "We" did not refer to the Republicans at all, but rather to nonslaveholding southerners.
And they called antislavery treason, which is another false charge.
It's nothing more than political balderdash and bombast, and not an objective assessment.
I don't believe that it's important how we speak...but that we do speak. I also think that "intellectual knowledge" is relative and can be measured in so many different ways. You are a wonderful addition to these boards and I have not only been charmed by your Southern manners and gentleness, but I remain in wonder at the depth of your feelings to cause, your knowledge of heritage, and your willingness to share openly, honestly, and with such passion and respect for others. These are the things that matter Richard...not the number of books we've read, or the way in which we make our thoughts breathe life into written form or dance onto our computer screens.
I learn something from you, and about you, with every new posting. You always make me smile, and your recent description of the Shenadoah Valley has made me realize that I've been pining to visit this special part of the world for too many years now, and perhaps I just needed a gentle nudging in the right direction from someone who has lived there. But I will go this fall and have you to thank for realizing yet another one of my dreams.
If it's any consolation at all, I remain the President of "The Know Nothing Party" and it is only through incredible patience and tolerance from others that I get to dally in areas that hold particular fascination to me. I feel like a "Civil War Sponge,"...I want to know, understand, and absorb everything from what the soldiers ate and how they lived, to how it was that a handful of politicians managed to orchestrate such madness and devastation within the shelter of their own hypocricy.
I just wanted to let you to know that you do make a difference, and since we are all rowing this boat of learning, tolerance, and understanding together, I'm very pleased that you are one of the oarsmen.
I’m not sure what type of fascism you are referring to but it is quite clear that Helper’s book and the Republicans were pretty much in fact, fascists.
Fascism is about emotion taking the place of reason. Of images and words having the power to inflame the masses in the direction you want and also the rationale of violence and the justification of force. All under a system of a centralized government in a time of peace. That is Fascism. Whether you have an elected tyrant or a self proclaimed dictator. The campaigning of the Republicans from the inception of the party showed very clear they wanted violence, nay, needed it to prosper. If you doubt it, then research it. Read Elwell Crissey’s book Lincoln’s Lost Speech.
And while the ending of slavery in and of itself is not fascism, the Republican endorsed Helper Book’s demeanor, words, inciting language and the plan itself all were fascism. As I said, the idea of ending slavery is not fascism. How you do it is. The elimination of the right to vote. Abolishing the Freedom of the Press, and my personal favorite, showing the racist mind set, "A Tax of Sixty Dollars on every Slaveholder for each and every Negro in his Possession at the present time, or at any intermediate time between now and the 4th of July, 1863 —— said Money to be Applied to the transportation of the Blacks to Liberia, to their Colonization in Central or South America, or to their Comfortable Settlement within the Boundaries of the United States." ......
"in no way the epitome of fascism" ..hmmmmm...ok. If you say so I guess it must be true.
Since the Republican’s paid to have to book distributed and he is quoting Weed and Sherman himself claimed it a manifesto I see no reason to believe ‘We’ should not be considered anything but what it is. And just FYI This was not from Helper’s first book but the Modified version the Republican’s wanted. To not ascribe ‘we’ to the Republicans in this instance.......ok. Feel free. But to tell me I am misrepresenting something is misrepresenting me. On top of accusations of misremembering.
The moment the Republican Party put down their money to have the book printed in any form, and why they wanted it, they became the "We."
But like I said, feel free. As for me. I am finished with this discussion.
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